Iām unclear at the moment whether the Consulate will even accept the CNCC that the Police are working on (I just had my Police appointment yesterday; the CNCC will be sent to the Consulate in 2 weeks). Because there is a flood of people emigrating out of Hong Kong, if I need to re-do the CNCC, the earliest new appointment I can get at the HK Police is end of April. By the time the CNCC is sent to the consulate, itās already six months since my biometrics appointment, so SEF might even consider it all to be invalid.
At this point my lawyer is too busy wagging her finger and saying āI told you soā regarding my wifeās FBI report, which I had insisted was not necessary and was a waste of US$500 (yes, with all the international courier costs to send in fingerprints, receive the apostilles, etc., thatās what itās costing).
As for whether an explanatory letter from my lawyer will help, the answer is ānoā. She already wrote a clear explanation to the SEF in Faro and Porto regarding the Police sending them the CNCC without apostille. Again, in the past we did the same and the Lisbon office accepted it. This time, Faro and Porto rejected it, including her letter.
And finally, regarding finding someone with better connections, Iām very friendly with a prominent businessman-developer in Lisbon who deals with uber-wealthy foreign clients (which I am not, by the way) and has all the right connections, and even he told me that he is powerless against the SEF.
See why Iām almost ready to give up? If this is an introduction to life in Portugalāwhere Iām hoping to set up a small publishing business and can only begin to imagine the Dantean depths of bureaucratic hell that may entail on numerous levelsāI may choose to find another place with either more reasonable bureaucracy or one where some banknotes slipped under the table will get the job done.
Hi. I donāt want to belabor this dialogue, because Iām feeling rather negative toward Portugal at this moment. But to reply to the above points:
Citizenship is indeed the goal. Iāve put effort into the language and am probably at A2 level and could pass the exam. But your suggestion of waiting until 3 or 4 years from now when (and if) I get citizenship, and then applying for my wife, who waits another 6 years (I know itās officially 5, but come on, this is Portugal. the reality is probably 7 years), is a non-starter.
I am aware of that fingerprinting service in China. Iād use it if we lived in Shanghai. But there is absolutely no way weāre going to send fingerprints and personal data across the border into China. Would you? In fact, weāre dealing with a fingerprint service in Texas, but cards still have to be sent by courier, then when we go to Monument visa, the hard copy still has to be couriered to Portugal. Add the fees and the costs mount up. For something (criminal record of someone who last spent substantial time in the USA in 1985) that in point of fact is absolutely useless, but the result of a typo in the law.
Sorry to grumble so much. This situation of has put me in an incredibly foul mood. Seriously considering pulling out of Portugal and obtaining an investment visa almost anywhere else.
I agree with this. It does, indeed, seem to work this way.
That said, Lourenco stated his goal was to move sooner, which means wife needs a residence permit of some sort to work with before then unless heās leaving her in HK, which has been shown to not be good for marriages.
I think the problem is, one way or the other and as @tommigun pointed out, youāre going to still have the same fingerprint issue. That part of the process will remain the same no matter what. Perhaps the conditions will be different in a few years such that itās less problematic. Or perhaps now that there is a file in the SEF system somewhere, no matter what she does or how she applies, all paths will shunt down into that file folder in the Faro office and sheāll be back in the same position.
I would tend to agree with this. Besides, isnāt the point to ārun awayā from all that anyway?
Bureaucracy is frustrating the world over. I feel your frustration, and maybe now the well is poisoned - since there is now a docket for your wife in SEF, no matter what you do anything you do will run into that stone wall. That is, I fear, just how it happens sometimes, and so yes perhaps Portugal is a dead end for you.
That said, I fear you run that kind of risk no matter where you go. Do you really expect the US or the UK to be better, that it is somehow devoid of unclear laws or typos in laws or bureaucrats interpreting laws in whatever fashion? Do you expect the other countries offering these kinds of options are truly so different than Portugal? If you do, then you are far more optimistic about the state of the world than I am.
(Ok, well, if youāre looking for banknotes under a table helping, you can probably find other options. But will you really like them and will they meet your needs?)
All that saidā¦ as frustrating as it isā¦ I would have considered spending the money on her flying to the US, going into a VistaPrint shop, getting her fingerprints done and sent to FBI and returned and sent through Monument Visa, getting a slice or a chicago dog or whatever bit of americana you might like, and flying home. Then you arenāt monkeying with cards, you arenāt wondering āwill her faint fingerprints be ok or notā - before you leave their little computer will grade the fingerprints and say āOk!ā even if it takes 20 minutes and a ton of corn oil (I understand, my fingerprints suck too) so thereās no questions. Yes, itās a frustrating and stupid thing to have to do. Yes, itās a couple thousand dollars out the window. Yes, you and she will be fuming the entire time unless you first go pick up a copy of āEveryday Zenā by Charlotte Joko Beck, which I highly recommend (along with most things by C.S. Lewis). But youāre already into thisā¦ how much? You are how far along? You know exactly what needs to be done. Yes, itās stupid and pointless. Like any number of other things we do all the time for governments, because for 1 in 1000 situations it isnāt actually pointless.
Breathe. Step back, look at yourself, look at the situation, look at your emotions, and examine where they are coming from. Look at what your long term goals are.
Yes, I would myself do what I suggest. My wife and I went to Portugal and sat around for a month in the HOPE of getting an appointment, and my wife was content with having to fly on 24hr notice if it came to that - this would be no different in scope and scale. But of course I am not you and I donāt know your situation, so I also am not judging you in any way.
All that said: I did not read the bit about the CNCCs. Thatās a different matter. And it sucks. Butā¦
But the SEF is not powerless against itself. A letter isnāt the answer. The answer is a phone call to a senior SEF official who can go over, get the file, point at the stupidity and call it stupid, and push it along. There are appeals processes for denials. The problem is that you need a lawyer who has the right phone number in their rolodex, and itās not always clear who those lawyers are. That is what @anon16151502 meant by āconnectionsā, I think.
And thereās the problem of your name difference on the US passport and the Hong Kong ID card. How was this problem, if it was a problem at all, the first time you and your wife was approved? Did you not also encounter a problem with SEF when the first residence application card?
I agree with @jb4422 - all countries are the same when it comes to bureaucracy, even the best ones can get you stuck on a minuscule detail not written anywhere in the law. Or perhaps written but with a comma missing, so open to interpretation by the clerk.
I personally had situations in different countries:
denial of citizenship of a country A for a newborn child (born in county A) despite both parents being citizens and residents of country A (yeah, true story);
denial of residence visa renewal because my salary was ātoo lowā
demand to pay taxes for property that was not yet finished (that one due to missing comma in some law)
currently dealing with an unwritten requirement to āconfirmā my marriage (already certified, translated and apostilled, but thatās not enoughā¦) in another country where I am applying for residence (not PT).
But I can tell you all of the above was successfully resolved (or being solved now) either with some persuasion, some extra dollar, or some connections.
So yeah, no pain no gain, but itās worth it.
Exactly. At this point, you have nothing to lose. Call several lawyers and explain the situation and offer them something on contingency if they can get this through the channels to someone who will look at it without the haze of bureacracy. If they donāt think they can do it, they wont waste their time and this might well be the way to break the logjam.
Or just kick your lawyer. āI told you soā may be correct in its way but isnāt exactly helpful. Maybe merely knowing that there is more they can do is enough to boot their asses into actually doing it. Maybe tommiās run across the appeals process in his digging. Sadly, doing your lawyerās work for them is sometimes the clientās jobā¦
Thanks for all your interest in my situation. I will respond to a couple points, and then I will drop the topic. I am too depressed to discuss it any further. @myakira
And thereās the problem of your name difference on the US passport and the Hong Kong ID card. How was this problem, if it was a problem at all, the first time you and your wife was approved? Did you not also encounter a problem with SEF when the first residence application card?
I clearly explained above: for the application and first renewal, the HK Police happily produced the CNCCs based on the passport name and number. These were sent by the Police, without translation or apostille, directly to SEF in Lisbon, which accepted them. Easy, no problem. It is the Faro and Porto offices demanding apostilles, and it is the Macau Consulate, through whom these must be requested, which is standing firm that they will only respond to requests based on a Hong Kong ID number.
As for my wife dashing to the USA for fingerprints for the FBI report, a non-starter. Thanks to covid and politics, Hong Kong has banned all direct flights to and from the USA until further notice. First, she would have to fly by an indirect route. Second, upon return to Hong Kong, she is subject to three weeks quarantine in a dreary hotelā¦if she can get a booking. The quarantine hotels are currently fully booked until the end of May. Therefore, if she traveled to the USA today for the 20-minute experience of being fingerprinted at a machine, she would return to Hong Kong at the earliest in June, and not actually get home until nearly July. She would have to quit her job as a result (months earlier than intended for our move). So, again, a non-starter for us.
In short, to throw our lives into complete turmoil and months of separation and financial pressure just because the SEF asks for a criminal record from a country that my wife has almost no connection to other than a passport (sheās not even native born American), plus the consulate making it impossible for her to get a completely unnecessary slip of paper, is simply out of the question.
I can claim Ukrainian citizenship by ancestry. Real estate is quite cheap there now, I hear. Maybe itās the better option.
I will respond to this thread only when there is either a resolution or I officially withdraw from the GV. I appreciate everyoneās concern and advice, but I hope you understand that the questions are only adding to my stress. Cheers.
I sympathize with you. I understand the frustration. Here we embarked on a journey to escape and settle peacefully in a different country and the whole process brings in anxiety, frustration and hopelessness. More oil to the fire with opportunity cost of huge tied up capital. I have been having second thoughts about this whole thing.
Weāre in a similar situation. Our lawyers have stated that yes, the dependant must have police clearance from place of birth, despite living elsewhere for 20 years, and yes, this is different from the main applicant.
I started this thread, so let me wrap it up. The nightmare of SEF paperwork is (almost) over, after well over two thousand euros spent, countless sleepless nights, anxious phone calls, and harassing bureaucrats in three jurisdictions. All to get two stupid and truly unnecessary pieces of paper.
First, regarding my wifeās FBI report (remember, weāre US citizens living full-time in Hong Kong, and the FBI report was never required in our initial application and first renewal). We found a guy in Dallas who runs a fingerprint service. He was great. My wifeās fingerprints were not. In order to get them done professionally she went to the Hong Kong Police, which has a fingerprinting service. Her fingerprints are notoriously light, but the HK Police did a decent job of getting a good looking set. I then scanned them on my industrial grade scanner, one used for scanning high quality artwork. I scanned it at the highest resolution, shot up the contrast, making sure all the ridges and swirls were clear, and sent it by e-mail to Dallas. They submitted it to the FBI. Which rejected them as too low quality.
Back to the Police. The guy in Dallas recommended getting more than one set, so he could piece together the best image of each finger. The Police were reluctant to do so but finally obliged. We sent the originals by FedEx. Because of Hong Kongās idiotic covid-related flight bans, all couriers offer only their super premium service. So we paid a bit over US$120 to send him three sheets of card stock. He spent three hours cutting apart and glueing together the best set, scanned it and sent it in. 8 out of 10 passed the FBI inspection, which was good enough.
Thanks to Monument Visa, three weeks later the FBI certificate was in my lawyerās hands and forwarded to SEF in Porto.
The Hong Kong criminal certificates, also required by SEF from both of us, were an even costlier venture. The HK Police will only issue criminal certificates to a requesting government authority. I am never allowed to touch it even once. In the past, I got a letter from SEF at the end of my biometrics appointment, brought it back to Hong Kong to request the certificate, and the HK Police sent it directly to SEF without translation or apostille. For our application and first renewal, SEF accepted this. But not this time. Now SEF requires the two sentences of simple English on the criminal certificates to be translated into Portuguese and ālegalizedā by the Portuguese Consulate in neighboring Macau. So I requested documents from the Consulate in Macau to present to the HK Police, which the Consulate e-mailed to me a few days later.
As Hong Kong descends into bone-chilling autocracy, people are fleeing here by the tens of thousands. And everyone needs a criminal certificate to emigrate to whatever country. So the HK Police are booked up months in advance for such requests. I called, wrote letters, and begged and pleaded, and finally found a woman on the phone who was able to slot us into someone elseās cancelled appointment. A month later, our certificates were sent to the Portuguese Consulate.
Also thanks to covid paranoia, no one from Hong Kong is allowed to enter Macau, so I canāt pick up my own documents. I had to hire a lawyer in Macau to do it for me. But she needed power of attorney from me, meaning find a notary public in Hong Kong and then send the statement by courier to her in Macau. Total cost for all this: around US$1300. Then when the certificates were ready, add another US$120 to send them by DHL from Macau to Lisbon.
My lawyer received them last Friday and sent them in to SEF. Easter is coming up, and SEF extinction is set for May, so Iām anticipating yet more excruciating bureaucratic delays in issuing our new ID cards. But at least everything is in place.
Total cost to humor SEF with an unnecessary apostille and an irrelevant FBI report (my wife hasnāt lived in the USA since 1985!): way over US$3000. Add another $60 for the two bottles of scotch to help me cope with the stress.
Assuming we get our new ID cards before September, we intend to move to Portugal then. Next stop: the agony of applying for a Certificado de Bagagem to ship household items, most of which were purchased over 20 years ago and for which no receipts exist.
All this, simply for a criminal background check from the US. Your case seems to be a complicated one. US citizens living in HK, under autocratic rule, mass exodus, backlog in HK, COVID, travel restrictions ā¦ Glad you are considering living in Portugal. Come the next renewal, you will not need one from the US as your residence becomes Portugal. But then again, for the next renewal, maybe things will have returned to normal, or worse.
I forgot to count around ten 5-litre boxes of cheap red wine. Add
another US$100 to the tab.
Looking back, not just on this latest experience, but right from the
start, the Golden Visa has been nothing but trouble and stress. It took
them 16 months to āprocessā (meaning, allow 4 or 5 cm of dust to settle
on) our original application, and this was back in 2018-2019, pre-covid.
That was SEF when it was ānormalā!
With hindsight, I honestly wish Iād never applied for the Golden Visa,
and simply waited to move there and apply for a D7. But Iām too deep in
to stop now. Fingers crossed, the next application will be for permanent
residency, which Iāve been warned will ramp up the bureaucratic
stonewalling to epic heights. Luckily, boxed wine is much cheaper in
Portugal.
@Lourenco Congrats on getting that done and on to the next phase. If you are getting two bottles of scotch for $30 - you might as well drink whiskey. When we get to Portugal we will celebrate together with a glass of 15 year single malt indeed.
But will you really like them and will they meet your needs?)