This âmessageâ and intent coming from a top government official also paints a further bad image about the GV âminorityâ group. Some of us have seen how damaging and dangerous it is in some countries
when leaders call out and blame specific groups.
Imagine we do end up getting a citizenship (for argumentâs sake) and move there some day, how might we introduce ourselves re: âhow you got here?â (Of course, in most cases locals would just assume).
Re: our voices, they donât really exist do they? So it is normal for locals to just assume we are ârich, corrupt people etc.â We all know its not true only because of this English-speaking forum only perhaps.
Should we bother to figure out and at least represent ourselves properly (while whoever in PT will discuss publicly about us)? Am sure no attempt will be fully effective but at least its authentic coming from us.
My understanding is that there will be no changes to the law for at least 45 days, so yes you can presumably still apply. I suppose your issue is whether itâs worth the initial application fee of EUR 540 or so per person to get into the system and any additional expenses that apply.
It may be that having made the initial application you will end up being allowed to proceed through the process, but there are no guarantees, so take your own advice on that. There may or may not be a transition period. The government could in theory toss people out who havenât reached pre-approval, or biometrics, or card issuance. You may also find itâs not worth carrying on with the application further down the track because of how renewals are treated. But I suspect in your shoes having made your investment I would be tempted to apply and hope for the best.
There is a 30 day period when the Government will take feedback on the proposed changes. Either as a group or individually we should make a representation and make suggestions. The developers and lawyers may push for the scheme to continue or be extended.
However, we the investors would have a different objective and would want minimal changes for existing cases and for the process to continue and cards to be issued in a time bound manner.
Exactly! every group should look out for its own. and currently we, the investors, have no one who would voice our concerns.
I doubt most of our lawyers would care enough for that, that is why we need to find a way to give some feedback to the government.
I think the lawyers do care, not least because for some this has been an important line of business. I know several of them will be making representations to government. And operators of real estate / PE funds or GV-friendly developments will also have a commercial interest and Iâd expect them to be expressing their concerns.
I agree. There is a âsliding scaleâ of risk. I would assume that the earlier in the process the more risk you would be affected. If you are just applying now, I think the risk is substantial that you would never receive pre-approval. If you are already approved, at least what I am hearing from lawyers is that there is a reasonable degree of certainty that you will be fine.
There are many ways to answer the question, because there are many ways to get there. You applied for and got a visa. Lots of people do that in lots of ways. Just because you own an expensive house, you can move there on a D7 and own an expensive house, and many do.
And even if you do naturalize, youâre never going to be a local. If you move there and live there, you can fit in and be accepted, perhaps, but youâre unlikely to ever âbelongâ so youâre always somewhat an âotherâ. At least the passport wonât say âgot here because of GVâ.
Until then of course the resident card states on it in big letters that youâre GV, and thatâs⊠I wish it didnât, certainly; it does bother me.
I think itâs all going to be about how you act. If you act like a rich bastard, then you are one. If you donât act like one, then you arenât.
I hear what you are saying. Itâs just disappointing that we donât want to ever say âGVâ (however we word it) but have to hide it. Feels more like undocumented immigrants.
You know, I kind of wonder if the remarks were deliberate, in order to stop the flow of GV now by creating uncertainty. Instead of the announcement creating a last minute panic to rush and get applications in, itâs caused everyone to jam on the brakes - âwait and seeâ, âshould I invest nowâ, people recommending to others âdonât apply it all sucks nowâ. So then they debate the whole thing, then pass a law thatâs reasonable and likely to pass legal scrutiny, to take effect nearly ASAP, which gives barely enough time for anyone in process to get their app in but no time for anyone who isnât already in-process to get in under the wire.
Because you know that if this took the normal process - announcing the winding down of the GV, starting next year - thereâd be a hell of a surge in applicants over the next year trying to get in under the wire, most of which would still be trying to buy houses, because Costaâs right, the predominant applicant is still buying a house - which would be the absolute last thing they want to have happen right now.
Oh sure, itâs a crappy way to go about it, but there arenât a lot of great choices if thatâs your end goal. Sure youâre playing with your reputation, but reality is that the crowd hive mind is fickle and forgets. Any politician is going to know that. Itâs a calculated gamble.
And yes youâre a pawn. You had to have known that going into it. Or at least I had no illusions. Though I still wish Iâd have gone HQA; it would have cost more, but was definitely politically safer.
Thanks everyone for your two cents! Having this communityâs support means so much to our family during these uncertain times.
When Costa said âif their properties are used as their own home,â I wonder if he had a primary residenceORvacation home in mind⊠Or is the government trying to push GV applicants to permanently live in Portugal while going through the GV process?
I think your analysis might be true. The surge in 2021 December was a headache for SEF and hasnât been resolved yet even at this point, so they definitely donât want another one, which can potentially be even bigger in numbers. BUT it is such a sick move, I couldnât believe itâs coming from a European government.
All this situation forces me to start being pro-active and to file a lawsuit against SEF, since Iâm waiting for the approval for already 15 months since my biometrics with no result⊠Enough, time to use the laws against the state entities.
Direct quote from a PGV lawyerâs client letter: âFrom the analysis made by our team, it is our opinion that the intention of the Government threatens fundamental constitutional principles, namely the right of private property and free disposal of the same.â
When the system prevents those in power from changing the rules, those in power mobilize public support to change the system.
Would venture to say the vast majority of us applying or considering PGV come from failed states or states in danger of failing. We all know this can happen because weâve seen it in our home countries. We wanted to believe it wouldnât or couldnât happen in Portugal, but here it is.
The back door is still wide open, and itâs not the golden visa.
In 2017, Portugal tweaked article 88(2) which made it possible to enter Portugal on a tourist visa, get a minimum-wage work contract, register expression of interest with SEF and continue working till approval. And so the permits issued for professional activity which were about 4,600 in 2017, jumped to 18,000 in 2018, and 29,000 in 2021. Meanwhile, issuance of ARI permits for primary holders have been flat, between 1,000-1,200 per year. (data from SEFSTAT â Portal de EstatĂstica reports passed through google translate)
While most entering by this route stay and work in Portugal - thereâs a visible shift in Uber driver demographics at least in Lisbon/Algarve - a certain number use Portugal as a launchpad to (illegally) work elsewhere in Europe during their temp residency, given the much higher wages outside.
Liberal immigration policy is great, but wildly inconsistent. Itâs weird that Portugal has opened up the minimum-wage sector to practically unrestricted immigration (donât think there are any quotas) while they are clamping down on the investment route. More people have come in on Art 88(2) in 6 months of 2021 than primary ARI investors through its whole lifetime of 10 years. And the latter have invested âŹ6.8 billion to boot
If anyone is thinking about legal action (too early right now - we should wait for the clarity on how they are going to treat in process applications) - we will all have the most leverage if we do this together as a âclassâ rather than trying to fight a myriad small battles, none of which will have scale or importance on their own.
Also, the entire cottage industry that has sprung to make money off of all of us going down the GV path (lawyers, funds, facilitators, marketers - all the advertisers on here are part of that list) should also be incented to fight back. So forming a coalition across all these groups probably gives the most leverage.
