I believe renewal fees for the GV is only 50% of the initial fee.
2 Likes
Yes, EUR3k for renewal, my mistake - apologies.
1 Like
Sorry it was an error on my part - for 4 people you’d pay 3k x 4 = 12k EUR on renewal (except RE/D2 conversion).
Then there are the legal fees and assorted documents. With all the stuff we have to get and what our lawyer has quoted for renewal, it is around €4600pp all in.
It has been a challenge for sure. Never in a month of Sundays did we think it would come to this. É a vida.
Good for you for making such a quick and definitive decision. Simplifying one’s life cannot be underemphasised.
2 Likes
Good point, forgot about the pesky lawyers. Just checked and it’s e3K for family of 4 people, so that would be 15k euros for the process. thanks!
1 Like
I’m very curious if any lawyers will spin up a class action lawsuit to sue for grandfathering. I would certainly join in given the “bait and switch” the government has seemingly done with my nearly $600k investment.
2 Likes
I have nothing against lawyers in general but I am sure there are always some who, for a “reasonable fee,” are quick to take on a case probably without adding much value. I have gone through the immigration process twice, once without a lawyer and once with one and I can tell immigration lawyers in Portugal tend to charge higher fees and are often far less responsive than one would expect for what they are paid.
1 Like
Well, yes, I see how you ended up in a precarious situation with your house. I too could give you quite an earful of poor construction practices, horrible engineering judgements, divergence from EU and local building codes, ignoring of manufacturers’ instructions and specifications, unscrupulous real-estate salesmen, and legal system unable and unwilling to enforce the consumer rights. Trust me, from a perspective of a mechanical/civil engineer, it is incredibly frustrating. However, that would clutter this thread too much (DM me if you want the gory details).
What I meant was if you happen to be lucky enough where your apartment or house is relatively comfortable and does not cause you too much headache, daily life in a city like Lisbon is rather easy and much more reasonable than in good old California.
So sorry to hear about your rather unfortunate experience. Good luck on your subsequent pursuit of your life goals.
3 Likes
I shudder to think how awful engineering and construction practices really are. 
Where we live has a real look and superficial feel of the Santa Monica hills. Lots of white villas and pools galore. But in reality it is like a 1950s time warp. Didn’t think being just outside the so-called Golden Triangle would be this parochial! I can see just how different a cosmopolitan city would be. We definitely chose poorly! 
Just to help you understand a bit: when I reviewed the current “National Plumbing Code”, DR 23/95 (1995 vintage), compared to the U.S. Uniform Plumbing Code, it was about 30 years old 30 years ago! Other general practices are not all that much better…
1 Like
This could be useful for anyone considering alternatives to PT for pathways to EU citizenship … but they do require boots on the ground residence!
Sorry to hear it Ray, I know its no fun being a victim of this sort of thing. I think all citizenship-by-investmemt and tax- advantage schemes face political and popular opposition and so are doomed to deteriorate or disappear, some faster than others. We were in a tricky position (me Brit; Russian wife; her UK residence permit of 5 years on 10 year route to permanent residence now suddenly not renewed - no reason given, no right of appeal). This led us to get D7 (passive income) PG residence. This has been frustrating (AIMA!) but with a bit of patience, it is working. If you actually want to live in PG (and be mobile throughout EU; as we do) I recommend this. No investment (but need a place, however modest, to live here). No tax breaks, minimal pressure on their house prices (if you live outside hotspots) so no domestic pushback. You have to actually live here, but if thats what you want, this may meet your needs. I think the key point is that schemes that seem ‘artificial’ and piss off the EU or the locals will gradually be eroded and killed off, but other residence schemes that dont will be fine. Yes the weather here on the Algarve, low price of land, and the food and wine, are attractive, but for me the biggest attraction of Portugal is that the people here (that we’ve met), and the government stance, are not racist or xenophobic. Unlike in UK. I am more welcome here in PG that I am in my own country (Im a Brit from birth) because my wife is foreign. I think thats the key data point for evaluating risk over the next 30 years, as one has to in retirement.
2 Likes
Elle, I think your overview is key here. The idea of the world being one’s oyster is ending. Ive worked abroad all my life, run a business from a tax haven, had offshore bank accounts - all legally. Over the past 20 years that started getting harder, about 5 years ago it became impossible (legally). Then with Brexit I lost the right of free travel in EU. I bought a house in UK and couldnt do it jointly with my Russian wife (solicitors would not play ball) as they assumed it was some sort of Russian asset transfer scam. Now I cant renew her residence permit in UK (they dont say NO but dont say YES either). Its not just Portugal. Everywhere populist politicians are gaining power (UK, USA, EU) and they instinctively bash foreigners and The Rich ( = investors). Look at the pushback against Airbnb and against camper vans in Europe. Separate from this is the gradual tightening of the global rules about living, working and investing outside your home country, mainly because all this is seen as tax avoidance activity - see how the EU tightened rules on their residents operating through foreign companies, and auto transfer of bank information between jurisdictions. Then the Panama Papers. AIMA is allowed to drag its feet, and the deals get less attractive, because of these long-term global shifts. I think its a mistake to follow too closely every AIMA statistic and every Constitutional Court judgment, or even which government is currently in power - its the longer arc of history that will determine our fate. Any scheme that allows you to buy civic rights ( favouring The Rich) or have a foot in more than one country ( being and International Person) is going to get eroded, or disappear. That is the long-term arc of history; I felt it 20 years ago and its in full swing. I believe the response is to fit in. Choose where you want to live, and live there, full time, on the same basis as the locals. Dont buy citizenship. Don’t get a sweet tax deal. Avoid premium property, especially in expat hotspots. One side effect of this is that you dont pay fees to anyone - you can do all the admin yourself. You avoid the stress of being lied to and let down by these hucksters. I re-evaluated my plans following those problems in UK and decided on Portugal, but am avoiding GV, lawyers, advisers and the usual expat hotspots. If youre making a long term plan I think you need to align with the direction history is going in, and low-tax; passports-for-cash is not it. Not anywhere. Those selling the services (who are by far the biggest beneficiaries of the system); and their tame websites, will not point this out. Thank God for this one, where one can. Long story short; we love Portugal and the (undeniable) pain of dealing with bureaucracy is at least less than in my country, UK. End of rant.
3 Likes
Sounds like you have surrendered without finishing the fight. The darkest hour is just one hour before dawn.
Thanks Alan. Your points are valid. Looking at the timeline, I’ve realized this path is becoming a bit impractical for me.
Since I’m in my mid 50s, a 14-15 year journey toward citizenship means I’d be hitting 70 by the finish line. Between the frequent travel back and forth and the financial investment, the disruption to my life feels like it outweighs the benefits at this stage.
It could be still a great option for someone younger or looking to move there permanently, but with the added uncertainty of the program’s future, I decided it’s best for me to pass.
2 Likes
They say it’s always darkest before it goes pitch black.
8 Likes
True! I’m afraid Europe, and possibly far beyond, is going to continue darkening for some time. I’m 70 now and dont hope to see the dawn, my plan is to survive as much of the night as I can.
5 Likes