Would love your take on this approach vs. simply waiting until we retire and going D7āor possibly exploring other Schengen options?
Background/context:
Weāre in our early 50s and about to pull the trigger on the Golden Visa. Hereās our reasoning:
Our kids live in Europe and plan to stay. We want the flexibility to spend significant time thereāespecially if grandkids enter the picture.
We run a U.S.-based business that allows us to work remotely (we currently travel 5ā6 months a year), but still benefits from us maintaining some presence in the States. We could retire now, but weāve got a good thing going and arenāt quite ready to give it up.
Global uncertainty makes this feel like a proactive hedge. Thereās always risk, but I focus on whatās within my control.
We could spend 4ā5 months a year in Portugal now, but tax residency and other time constraints make anything longer tricky. Realistically, we expect to retire in 3ā5 years and then shift residency to Europe.
So, for us, the Golden Visa feels like the right moveāfor now.
Open to any constructive thoughts or alternative angles I might be missing, particularly giving our āin-betweenā ages. Appreciate the help in thinking this through.
I think it really depends on your long term goals. If youāre planning to physically live in Portugal specifically in 3 years, it might be better to wait and go the D7 route. If youāre not sure that you want to be in Portugal and donāt plan to make a move for 5 years, there isnāt really an alternative to the GV and youāre better off starting sooner rather than later. A number of other countries offer retirement visas, so you could always start the GV process and then take up residence somewhere else if thatās part of the goal.
A number of users here have had really bad experiences with the GV program, and will tell you to save yourself the headache. Some people have been waiting on approval for 4+ years, and may be eligible to start the citizenship process the moment they receive their first card. If you plan to use the GV card to actually be in Portugal you could be disappointed, but for those of us just looking for a European passport the wait isnāt a big problem.
Thanks for this. Your thinking aligns with my thinking.
The GV seems to be worth the risk in large part because Iām flexible on timelines, hope to live p/t there in 3ish years, and would prefer to add the passport while Iām young enough to enjoy it!
If the GV program declines or the rules change such that Portuguese citizenship is no longer a practical path, I can just switch my plans, with just a bit of disappointment and lost fees. I always hate losing money but one reason Iām still working is so I can afford to take risks that give me a shot at the life I want to live!
Iām guessing your kids are not in Portugal, otherwise you would have said āPortugalā not āEuropeā.
I tend to think at this point that anyone who is thinking about PGV as a path to naturalization should just let that go. I donāt see a way that, by the time any new applicant gets through the process, the nationality laws donāt get changed such that naturalization is no longer any more realistic than it is for Spain or Greece or anywhere else.
Oops. I went to edit my response and accidentally deleted itā¦ reposting with an addition.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Correct. Theyāre in two different countries to boot.
Requirements for naturalization, mostly. And, to my mind, Greece faces similar uncertainty that the Portugal GV does over the long-term. I see the risks but am confident that the timing for me will work to fulfill any longer stay requirements for citizenship that may be imposed. (In practice, way fewer Greek GVs convert to citizenships, at least from what Iāve read.)
Aside from market performance risks, Iām estimating Iām putting ~$30k in various fees at risk, which I can live with. I havenāt found all the negative conjecture about the future of the scheme that convincing ā but thatās a big part of why Iām asking my question!
I think thatās a good way to look at PGV - itās the optionality it gives to set a course towards living in PT (and potentially EU citizenship) while not committing to live there now, or at any time, should you choose not too.
Thatās the unique advantage it holds over Retiree or Nomad visas that inevitably require substantial in-country presence and tax residency from Day 0.
A bird in hand is worth two in a bush.
If the Portugal GV, as it is today, gives you what you expect to need 3 years hence and the cost and funding is within your means, then take it. Reasons:
There is a clock attached too. If you get convinced about the program in 2027, you cannot come back to April 2025 to start your clock. But if you do jump in now you could still opt out at any time provided you have the capacity to bear the expenses already incurred.
The GV program could get modified in future in a manner that it no longer suits your needs or, worse, it could be scrapped altogether. Same for D7.
Not all European countries permit immigration for parents. My kids too are in a European country (fortunately the same country) but this one permits family reunification only for the spouse and children. Physically and financially dependent parents MAY be considered if adequate evidence is provided. Thanks to the Almighty I am not dependent and hence not eligible.
If it āfeels like the right moveāfor now.ā, then make the move. I have to assume that you have done all the required due diligence.
My tuppence.
I too am considering the GV for reasons similar to yours in some respects. I am not from the US though.
Iām very curious to understand why you now think this way, Jeff?
As far as Iām aware there have been one comment from a member of PSD that they want to make naturalization less of an incentive for people to move to Portugal in general, but no information about how this could potentially impact GV-holders. There have been some clickbait-y articles that made it sound like PSD was targeting the minimal physical presence requirements of the GV, but I really havenāt seen any evidence of that. And it really would make no sense that PSD would willingly kneecap a program they are big supporters of and if anything would rather expand than restrict.
Also, even if the nationality law is changed in a way that makes GV much less attractive, itās not a given that it would impact those already in the system. Though my understanding is that the ARI is totally decoupled from eventual naturalization, we still donāt know if there would be any transitional clause protecting those who already became residents before this.
While I definitely agree that things are looking a bit more risky now than they did a month ago, I still think thereās a pretty good shot at citizenship for someone starting the process now.
All that being said, if you want guaranteed EU citizenship with minimal residence requirements, thereās always the much more expensive Maltese CBI program.
I was sitting in a cafe just yesterday, listening to a Brazilian kid telling an American couple how he had come over to Portugal with the intent of working for a while, getting the passport, then going elsewhere in Europe. In earshot of various Portuguese people. And how he wasnāt entirely enamored of Portugal itself, for various reasons. This wasnāt Lisbon either, this was a small town up the coast.
I know how Iād feel overhearing that.
Yes itās a sample size of one. However this kind of anecdotal stuff seems to keep cropping up in various ways, and no good can come of it.
Portugal is already off-market in how permissive it is. It was one thing when it was a few people. But now itās a ton of people who are becoming eligible.
We can talk all we want about economic benefits and all that, but citizenship is one of those soft squidgy things thatās tied in with culture, and that means any decisions around it wonāt be entirely ārationalā. The Portuguese are, AFAICT, a proud people, and there is something quite humiliating about being used just to get a passport for access to everywhere but your country.
It wonāt change tomorrow, or the next day, but in 2-3 years? Yeah, Iād put money on it. Thereāll be an event of some sort that triggers a reaction. Like most things, change happens slowly, then all of a sudden. There will be a lot of fuss and argument and upset people, thereāll be some grandfathering and all that, but the door will slam closed faster than anyone will expect, same as NHR.
I guess that is one of the contradictions of single markets like the EU.
You can see similar things play out in countries like Canada/Australia that (used to) allow provinces to sponsor immigrants. An immigrant might be sponsored to work in a less desirable province, then once they earn their Canadian citizenship they are free to move to a more desirable one.
A weak point of the EU compared to the USA is there is ironically much less redistribution of wealth. In the USA billions in taxes from rich states get redistributed by federal spending to poorer states. Thereās no similar redistribution from rich EU countries to poor EU countries at comparable scale.
āā¦intent of working for a while, getting the passportā¦ā
I am not sure what the brazilian lad meant by saying āfor a whileā. Did he mean 1 year-3 years? Or how much time does he consider āfor a whileā? Either he did not understand what he was saying or he is a stupid person. With all luck combined from Jesus Allah and Big Budda, one could get a passport in 7 years. However iāve never seen/met/known anyone who successfully achieved 7 years taget.
My wife and I have just got residence with the D7 visa. I have a pension. There were delays, costs and broken promises, but they just wasted some time and irritated us, didnāt stop us doing what we wanted to. By contrast I hear seriously unhappy stories on the GV. Maybe arrange a passive income via an annuity contract - you only need about EUR 1,500 a month I think - and do it that way? Of course you will pay tax. We pay more tax here than we did before (UK, Russia) but considering : the weather, friendly people, food, wine, full access to Schengen (and so, like you, family), security (I suspect Moncarapacho is so low on Putinās list of places to nuke that he wont get round to it, and its easy here to be self-sufficient in electric power and water - we didnāt even notice the recent major power outage), low price of land (we have an acre); we decided to pay anyway. We are happier than weāve ever been and it has potential to be the place we ride out a global war, so weāre trading some of our wealth for that. Canāt think of anything better we could spend it on. I canāt believe Im writing this, Ive spent my whole life minimising the tax I pay!
In UK most of our tax is paid at 20%. Here more of it is in a higher band - the bands rise faster here as income rises than they do in UK. Only a slight difference for us, helped by the fact that here I can split the pension with my wife, but still we pay a bit more.
Unlike the situation for US citizens, the UK does not continue to tax its citizens after you cease to be tax resident. This is the case for the vast majority of countries. The US is an outlier in this respect and itās why tax is more complicated for Americans living abroad.
The UK pension can be paid gross of UK tax (you can apply to be rated NR or āNill Rateā with proof that youāre tax resident elsewhere) on the understanding that the income is declared in the country of tax residency - in this case Portugal - and tax is paid there.
Portugal taxes are higher than UK taxes and now thereās no NHR to ease the pain. For instance, the UK has a single personās allowance where the first GBP12,570 per year is not subject to income tax and then everything up to GBP50,270 is taxed at 20%.
If you look at Portugalās sliding tax scale then youād be paying a minimum of 13% rising to 45% (with a deductible) by the time you reach that GBP50,270. As the OP has indicated, the only benefit is that a married couple can share the income on their tax returns meaning each pays lower rates but still higher than a single person would pay in the UK.
Yes, I made a calc, a bit shocking that even after dividing the pension between us, each of us sits in a higher band (marginal tax %), and has a higher average tax %, than was the case for me alone in UK. And this assumes the double taxation treaty will work as advertised and I wont pay tax in both places - will be trying that out shortly. Still its not a huge amount and I reckon we are getting our moneyās worth.