Well, colleagues, I have meant that GV holders are not residents until get the first permit. Contrary to many applicants who try to get entrepreneurial permit from inside. For them the idea is to change from treatment as illegal residents to legal, they are even tax residents. Only few people with GV move to Portugal before approval and wait there.
It is a very long shot to claim that GV holders are legal residents before approval and receiving of the first card. But as I said there are not many GV holders to create exception for them. But from the logic of the reason for this change GV holders should not be covered by that change.
BTW, if they prohibit to apply from inside there will be another way to solve this problem.
I see there is some confusion. There is tax residentship, where you indeed have to be in the country for half a year; and there is a residentship for immigration purposes.
For the latter, you donāt have to constantly be in the country to maintain a residentās status. The only requirement to maintain the residentās status is to stay in the country for at least 7 days a year if you are an ARI holder. The old version of national law said that to apply for citizenship you have to be a resident for 5 years (there is no reference to living in Portugal, and no reference to the ARI program). So, GV holders were successfully spending 5x7=35 days in Portugal over a 5-year period and were obtaining citizenship.
There is no confusion from my side. There are thousands of immigrants who live in Portugal, work or have small businesses, pay taxes and waiting SEF visit during 2 yrs after manifestaĆ§Ć£o. This period was not counted against citizenship, and it is what the former government wanted to solve.
Why 2 years of waiting ARI with zero days spent in Portugal in most of cases should be counted against citizenship , I do not get, but it is very possible that it would
P.S. And to emphasize that it is no confusion on my side: on most other residents permit people on average needs to spend 8 month per year in Portugal in order not to lose it (allowed not more than 6 month out of Portugal simultaneously and 8 month cumulatively during the whole period of the permit). While after manifestaĆ§Ć£o people usually live 100% here, because could not risl to leave the country, because they unlikley get back
Immigrants who stay and work in Portugal under āmanifestaĆ§Ć£o de interesseā are mostly Brazilien. They initially come to Europe as a tourist without apply for visa and during their stay as a tourist they find a job and extend their temporary trip to a permanent stay. It is normal that portuguese speaking immigrants from Brasil follow this route. If someone works in Portugal, they must stay in the country and pay tax in the country.
With GV, i believe 90% GV applicants are from third world countries (China India SouthAfrica Turkey Lebanonā¦) and NEED to apply a visa to enter the schengen zone. Therefore, they do not spend any day in the country while waiting for the Biometric schedule. If they had the card in hand earlier, they would travel immediately to Portugal and EU. Because freedom of travel is what they are paying for. There is no other solution. If they want to spend some times in the country, they must wait until they have cards in hand.
Two groups of people suffer from long wait. The first one could not exit the country for two years. The second one could not enter the country and settle down (if they wish to) for two years. The pain is equal to both sides.
Just want to say at this moment, the average processing time for citizenship is 2 years minimum, close to 3 years and looks like it tends to go over 3. When new nationality law finally passes, the number of applications gonna hit new record high and I cannot imagine how long the waiting time would be. Right now, getting valid residency permits and citizenship are both problems.
I think the confusion is just that you keep mentioning taxes. Tax status is a seperate concept. You can become a Portuguese citizen without ever being a tax resident (and in some circumstance be a tax resident without being a resident for immigration purposes).
Yes, the moral argument you hear from non-ARI immigrants is that they live in the country and pay taxes so should not be left in processing limbo. But there is a solid argument for starting the clock from application day for ARI holders too, even if we were not living in the country.
We have all made substantial investments in Portugal on the promise of a 5 year horizon. SEF/AIMA chaos means hundreds of thousands of Euros will have been tied up in the country for years longer than we were told it would be ā¦ with no explanation, accountability, or transparency. That is a theft. Most ARI applicants would arguably have spent more time in Portugal after initial application but did not because they were waiting for approval. The ARI situation obviously has different contours to manifestaĆ§Ć£o immigrants, but there have been similar systematic failures for everyone that the government needs to remedy or they will likely face an increasing number of legal challenges.
Yes, they are mostly Brazilians. And what they do is legal. It is how previous government organized migration. Brazilian community organized themselves and lobbied as well as worked via courts to press for that change.
We, GV holders, are just beneficiaries of that law (if applied to GV) by chance.
I mention taxes continiuously, because it is a reality. People on manifestaĆ§Ć£o are treated as legal residents in most spheres, and especially taxes.
We should abstract from GV and stop comparing.
I am just explaining how and why this law was created, and who was the main targeted beneficiaries of that law.
PS was creating voting base for itself. And I just want to remind that we, GV holders, were always for them to blame. If PS had left in power I would put more chance than our waiting period would not be included.
Parliament didnāt think about GV at all when voted, and now left all this mess and implementation of the new law to new government. While the new government apparently is less favoralble to uncontrolled migration. And a bit better to GV holders. Just a bit!
What the brazilien immigrants do is legal. And what GV holders do is also legal. As long as the new law does not distinguish specifically which type of immigrants will benefit from it, then it is pointless to make comparison between thoses two groups. Because all will be included by one law.
In my opinion, it is a 100% wrong direction when taking tax issue into the citizenship matter. Why?
Letās look at the requirement for citizenship via 5 years residency (the most common one):
A2 portuguese
5 years residency
clean criminal record
connection/tie to Portugal
The last one i.e connection/tie was removed.
There is no requirement or whatsoever about the tax matter. It is 100% clear by bullet points. If you meet all three requirements. You will eventually get the citizenship. Bureaucracy only delays the outcome, but it cannot stop you from getting it if all conditions are met.
You can claim that one pay more taxes should have more priority. However the officers who examine your application and give decision of granting citizenship will only follow clearly the 3 requirements above. He/she does not care how much taxes you have been contributing in this country.
Nothing is speculative here. I always strictly look at requirement and follow. Clean and clear.
I mention taxes continiuously, because it is a reality. People on manifestaĆ§Ć£o are treated as legal residents in most spheres, and especially taxes.
In public opinion, you are probably right. But people on manifestaĆ§Ć£o are treated the same as everyone else when actually determining tax residency ā¦ same as ARIs, D7s, and citizens. Namely >183 days and/or maintain a permanent home during the fiscal year and you will pay taxes in Portugal. Again, āTax residencyā and āresidency for immigration purposesā are seperate determinations. And ātax residencyā is not a consideration when determining eligibility for naturalization, neither under the old or the new laws.
But yes I do agree we are potentially in a slightly friendlier environment with the new government. Although I think both the PSD and PS are often coerced into making populist decisions by minor parties, just from different directions.
Nope, it is not the point. When Brazileans immigrant were lobbying the clarification in the law, they argued that the law says ālegal residentā, and people with manifestaĆ§Ć£o are residents and treated as legal residents, including tax residency, in many spheres. But not against the citizenship which is not only unfair but wrong by many reasons.
If GV holders would start arguing to include their waiting period into time count, they would have very weak legal argument. Ok, they become residents after granting their permit, but why before? More over there are loud voices that ARI holders should spend more time in the country to count this period against citizenship. And there are many examples of such permits in Europe. Where stay requirements are diffrrent to renew and to count against citizenship. And every GV holder should have it mind. That the norm for contagem de tempo may change any time.
Political arguments are not the same as legal arguments. To whatever extent their tax residency was raised by Brazilians lobbying the government, that is a moral or political argument (ie as taxpayers, we deserve to have our immigration status resolved), not a legal argument (ie our tax status legally requires that you amend our immigration status). They are not the same.
Similarly with the claim ARI holders āwould have very weak legal argumentā to count 5 years from application. You describe the political climate, not the legal arguments.
Anyway, I think we have a good argument to count from application (moral, and possibly legal pending the publication of regulations), and Iām glad the courts have already started to recognize that ARI holders have been subject to undue processing times. I would also guess that there are some āquiet voicesā behind the scenes pressuring the government to not make Portugal look like an unreliable investment partner (fund managers, property developers etc). Letās hope we all get through this as rapidly as possible with our sanity intact.
FWIW I asked my lawyer about this despacho and itās impact on citizenship back in 2022 (ie before this new law).
Their opinion then was that anyone who took up residence as an applicant (as I did) using this law would be classed as ālegally residentā and able to apply for citizenship 5 years after moving to PT.
(They would need to provide evidence they made PT their home & continued as their home until receiving the GV or being granted citizenship).
Interesting.
I did not think that would be the case as the Despacho provided for legal āpresence/stayā rather than āresidenceā. And the latter is whatās required for citizenship.
My understanding is that if youāre not tax-resident in Portugal and you have no Portugal-source income, you donāt need to file. More discussion here: