Dear members, I need your experience.
The question concerns citizens of non-EU countries participating in PGV program.
During the paperwork phase with Mercan we are stunned by the information that, in fact, people participating in PGV program, who have short-term portuguese visa (before obtaining Portuguese citizenship), actually do not have the opportunity to work or study in other EU countries, since under EU law it is not allowed to have simultaneously 2 short-term residence in two countries of EU. That means that if I find a job in the EU (for example, in Austria) having investment residence card in Portugal, I will not be given a residence card to work in Austria. So I can forget about work in the EU for all 7-9 years, until Iāll become a citizen of Portugal.
Who can comment on this?
For me this is unforeseen and pessimistic info.
Your information seems correct so you should trust your advisors.
As for working in EU, I assume I cannot unless there is provision that allows it so this way there is no disappointment. If it is problem, then you can take residence directly in Austria and obtain work permit in Austria.
So this means that all 7+ years (waiting for citizenship of Portugal) I canāt work in other EU countries and my children canāt go to universities in EU without renunciation of Portuguese residency (so me or my child has to stop participation in PGV program), wright? For me it soundsā¦ unbelievable. When you are trying to open the borders, but they, on the contrary, close!
@6cd2cff41aa164bdc7e7 Technically your thoughts are true and right. My idea is that if Portugal found that you spend all your time in another EU country and seeking residency there, it would possibly be a basis to oppose your PR or citizenship because of lack of ties to the national territory. If you think, this makes sense. Your ties are to another country.
You could say, well the PGV allows me to spend time out of the country and this is true. But I think all countries involved would see this as āgamingā the system.
But olga should ask a lawyer not a forum as this. I think the answer will be it depends on the EU country you are trying to work or reside in. I recently read article that Portugal seeks immigrants that wish to develop roots in Portugal not just gain EU rights and move on to other countries in the EU.
It is not allowed to have permanent residence permits from multiple EU countries, for the obvious reason that one canāt be permanently resident in two countries. However, if you are resident in EU country for 5 years, you can apply for a āEU long term residence permitā, which allows you to go to other countries and do other things pretty much as if you were a citizen.
However I think it is possible to have multiple temporary residence permits or visas. The issue is that different residence permits and visas have different requirements and they need to not be in conflict. Since every country has some N different types of permits, all with different rules and requirements, the rules can easily conflict. For example, a D7 requires you to be in Portugal for at least 6 consecutive months, but a German aufenthaltserlaubnis is lost if you are gone for over 6 months, so in practice you canāt hold both unless you can teleport at midnight on the 6 month boundary. A GV has fewer such requirements and thus it may well be possible to hold another permit. It just means a bit of a dance to keep all your permits sorted.
But I donāt know.
If you are using the standard Mercan lawyers, they may not be well-versed in these matters - after all youād need someone who actually dealt with these kinds of situations - so as someone else said you probably need to ask a lawyer that has experience.
The specific case that the lawyer gave us sounded like this: a child from a family participating in the PGV entered a university in Austria. And Austria did not give him a study visa due to the presence of a short investment resident card in Portugal. As Iāve understood the child had to be excluded from the PGV program. And this can happen to an adult due to necessity of work in another EU country
āI think the answer will be it depends on the EU country you are trying to work or reside inā
As I saw in internet (similar topics for discussion, but not 100% the same) it really depends on 2nd country (where you are intended to work or study) and even sometimes on the city where you are apply for a work or study visa. In fact this means that you may be lucky, but you may not, because according to the law on this matter it is obscure and formally not in our favor, as the lawyer said.
Regarding the renewal of a short-term investment visa in Portugal, if you have obtained a second short working residence in another EU country during PGV program, formally Portugal may decide not to issue the next residence card. this is again from the words of a lawyer.
Therefore, this is definitely a very serious issue and great additional risks, career and educational, for those whose geography depends on work or study, and not vice versa.
Yes, my vision was the same as you write, regarding the impossibility of two long-term residences and the possibility of two short-term ones.
Yes, probably, it is necessary to listen to opinion of one more lawyer. Although Mercanās lawyer seemed highly professional.
In any case, it is unpleasant to realize that in addition to all the investment risks discussed here, the ambiguity with the timing of obtaining citizenship (which we now see realistically is achievable in 8-9 years, and not in the declared 6.5 years), there is also such a risk of being closed for all these years for study and work outside Europe. And it is disappointing conclusion
There is a lot of speculation and anecdote in this thread. Personally, I am not aware of any EU law that outright forbids anyone from simultaneously holding visas or permits of any kind from more than one EU country. If someone can cite a specific provision in EU law to the contrary then this thread would have more credibility.
Also consider EU nationality. Portugal does not allow EU citizens to participate in GV program. In the unlikely chance you obtained citizenship in another country first, you could disqualify yourself from Portugal GV program.
Yes, I can imagine itās unpleasant to discover this when you were hoping it were some other way. Certainly itās not obvious on the surface. Sadly, a lot of things in life end up that way, from the sandwich at the deli that looks great but turns out to suck, to that house you bought that turns out to be on top of a superfund site. That said, itās not a PGV problem, itās a EU problem - the EU isnāt a country, itās 27 of them, each with their own opinion of how things should be and limited ability to dictate to the other members. Anything beyond that is the marketing done by these groups that focus on it being āaccess to the EUā instead of what it really is, which is āaccess to Portugalā.
You are right, there is a risk of non-renewal. I truly imagine .pt wonāt really care. There is nothing formal in the .pt law saying you canāt have another residence permit or indeed referencing anything about another countryās residence, just that you have to continue to meet the guidelines of your own permit. But Iām not a lawyer nor have I dealt with the .pt system at all.
Conversely there might be something in Austrian law prohibiting issuance of visas in the presence of other EU permits. It might behoove one to look, just to understand where that is coming from. You probably would further need to talk to an expert in the countries youāre interested in.
If you can get a job and think you can keep getting jobs and intend to keep working, maybe an EU blue card is more appropriate? That lets you migrate around if you expect to keep working in the EU, and you can use that as a path to permanent residency and then to EU long-term residence - thereās some interesting different rules around the EU blue card system; if you donāt really mind being ātrappedā in the EU (horrors!), EU long-term residence is IMO in most respects as good as being a citizen and Iād be happy with that. (Just get a Caribbean CBI and tie your residence permit to that somewhere along the line if you are concerned about your existing passport.) If I intended to keep working Iād have certainly considered that path not PGV. Granted there are risks along that path (canāt find a job to keep the wheel going) but all paths have risks. The PGV is aimed at a certain market and maybe it just doesnāt fit you that well.
Iām figuring about 7 years on citizenship at this point - but everyoneās mileage will vary; I think the issue is the front-end time to get the initial permit, not the back end citizenship app.
Agreed about the blue card itself, but you can use the blue card path to getting to an EU long term resident permit, which is distinct from a countryās permanent-resident permit (since it has an EU-wide mandated set of requirements, which includes 5 years boots-on-ground within the EU somewhere); itās explicitly written in the EU statutes that long-term residents are entitled to most rights of citizens including full freedom of movement and equal rights in a lot of areas and is automatically renewable. Itās not perfect but itās not bad and might be enough for someone.
Hi there. I asked this question to my lawyers once. What EDGE explained to me at the time was that the Portuguese GV card allows you only to live in Portugal so you cannot move to another EU contry on this card. However, they told me that this does not prevent you from getting another residency in another EU country. So I guess if you had the chance to work in another EU contry you could, but you would need to get a visa for that country. I was told this does not affect the Portuguese GV. If you want I send you their contacts and you can ask them directly.
Yes if you can choose the place where to stay for all the period until the naturalisation. Unfortunately for us the place and length of stay depend on work, so we do not chose the country and the duration of stay in it
Netherlands explicitly calls out the case where a prospective employee has an EU residence permit, and it doesnāt appear to be prejudicial.
If the employee will be staying in the Netherlands for more than 90 days, you will also need to apply for a provisional residence permit (mvv). This is a special type of visa with which the employee can enter the Netherlands. Not all nationalities need an mvv. If your employee already has a residence permit from a Schengen country, you do not have to apply for an mvv.
There are a lot of different factors to consider here and its hard to take them into account simultaneously because there are different goals and purposes, and each country has its own rules.
This may not be an issue if you just want residency in two countries. However, citizenship may be a totally different situation. Someone mentioned this upthread and I would be concerned because some countries have vague and subjective rules that you have to have show ties to the community to be eligible for citizenship. This may or may not apply to your situation and it might not be an issue at all for GV applicants. But in general terms it would be easy for a country to deny your citizenship on this basis. By way of example, You apply for citizenship in country X, but all your ties (live, work, school) are in country Y. While you may meet all the technical requirements for citizenship, it would be possible for country X to deny because they donāt think you will seriously contribute to the betterment of the country.
Thank you for opinion! Yes, your thoughts about meeting the criteria for citizenship and confirming ties with the country of desired citizenship are logical. But for me this logic works exactly until we remember the golden visa criteria - no need to live and work in Portugal, except for 1 week per year. On that basis, then, why does Portugal prohibit short-term residence (work as a consequence) elsewhere in EU? Waiting for citizenship duaring 7 years I still have to work, in Europe, America or somewhere else in another country. Thatās illogical for me.
In this situation, there is only one mitigating factor - in different cities, the SEF looks at such a residence in another EU country differently, as a lawyer told us. But in fact, it is unpleasant to realize that this requirement of the absence of another European short-term residence duaring all 5 years of investment visa in Portugal formally exists and is in force. If we encounter it, we may be lucky or we may not be lucky