Citizenship for kids and the spouse

[Kevin33 (Kevin)]

I asked about that and my lawyer said that was not the correct interpretation.

I also convinced myself that even if she was wrong that it wouldn’t be a big deal because I would have CIT and my wife would just get residence through me for the first years we live in PT. Certainly not ideal, but also not going to blow up our long term plans.

[RidleyQLero]

Like many here, I have read with interest and gratitude comments about designing an optimal strategy to get a GV inclusive of family.

For me, it’s a bit more complex as we have 3 generations including my parents, spouse & me, and minor children.

We are not intending to live immediately in Portugal, but the singular focus is citizenship and not residency.

1. It seems clear that the my elderly parents and I (as the main applicant), need to apply directly via the GV application.

2. The spouse seems to be able to get citizenship (“reunification”) after I have received mine, assuming we have been married for more than 6 years (and the marriage certificate is recognized by Portugal, which may be another process) and without language or community requirements? (correct / incorrect)

The tricky bit is the minor kids. All are minors now, but in 5-6 years time, 1 will reach 18+. The other will be less than 18.

3. For the child less than 18 in 5-6 years, it seems like they cannot automatically get citizenship through the GV->citizenship program until they turn 18? (correct / incorrect)

If correct, then they must renew the residency, though now they can do it through the normal process as opposed to the GV?

4. For the child greater than 18 in 5-6 years, they would need to be on the application since otherwise they would have to start from scratch with residency. Therefore, the child should indeed be included on the GV application today to avoid the new residency stipulation? (correct / incorrect)

5. Finally, when I look at various Portuguese embassies, for example in the US, they state that evidence of ‘community ties’ can include any of:

• Visits to Portugal (photos)
  

• Receipts from hotels, restaurants, medical bills, airlines
  

• Portuguese clubs or Associations in US
  

Would be intrigued to hear any thoughts.

Thank you

[tommigun (Tommy Gunn)]

Have you checked the posts above on this thread, in particularly my own posts from Sep 19th?

[RidleyQLero]

Unfortunately, does not seem like much is “answered” above, hence the questions in the first place

Question #2 about my spouse appears to be gray between different legal rules (one document says can be external to the GV and automatic, the other says requires residency). There’s also a lot of opining, which tries to rationalize, but doesn’t answer, and seems to muddy the waters. If the answer is there, kindly point it out

Question #3 about minor children on the GV application still not being eligible for citizenship till 18 was never answered as far as I can tell (though am humbly ready to admit if mistaken)

Question #4 doesn’t seem to have an answer so far, about now-minority-but-then-majority-age children (in 5-6 years), and yes no confirmed legal advice, but seems like university admissions and financial dependency is all that is needed to have them considered similar minor children

Question #5 about the simplicity of “community ties” isn’t really answered, though there are a lot of opinions and musings

Thanks to anyone who has some legal insight and practical experience. It goes without saying that this is a discussion board and not formal legal advice

Am very appreciative that this board has so many people trying to assist one another and hopefully (& collectively) all are successful in navigating

[jb4422 (Jeff B)]

Well, I think the point here is that the topics have been discussed quite extensively with many references, and, well,

@RidleyQLero

appears to be gray between different legal rules (one document says can be external to the GV and automatic, the other says requires residency). There’s also a lot of opining, which tries to rationalize, but doesn’t answer, and seems to muddy the waters.

Yup, that’s the collective answer. It isn’t all exactly clear, and people even get different answers from different lawyers sometimes, so YMMV. Though I’d disagree with the characterization of opining - @tommigun and others have posted solid references. That the net result is vague and unclear, well, is just making the point even louder.

Oh, and the post tommi was referring to, from sep 19 -

Portuguese Citizenship application after 5 years of Golden Visa

HI Andrew, Sorry that I have missed your email earlier. I am not sure I understand your question correctly. In order to renew for the GV, your kids must filful the 3 criteria above. for education as long as the school’s declaration letter say they are studying, it doesn’t necessarily need to have to mentioned full time. They don’t need to be under bachelor or master program. There are also many short programs in the world that they can take. Many consider a 15 - 20 hours / week program is…

The thing being, once you get into a complex situation, well, it gets complex. Law can’t cover every situation. Especially if you try to avoid the obvious path (apply for all your kids etc under GV rules and pay up). And as your situation gets more complex, the less likely it is that there are going to be other people who have gone through the experience who also have time and inclination to answer your question here. When you’re talking about “what will happen 5-6 years from now” with respect to a program that hasn’t been around that long (in the grander scheme of things) or had all that many applicants (the bulk of whom are Chinese, and I’ve seen few of them here) who would have come out the other side, the base of people who might even have a practical answer is pretty slim. And 5 years is a long time. Who’s to say the rules won’t change between now and then?

That said I do feel like @susanayang has written some stuff about this on another thread too. Though she too isn’t a lawyer.

[RidleyQLero]

Thanks - your post is absolutely spot-on and amazing for those of us following the nuances lest we waste the effort in being unsuccessful.

Completely agree, as much as none of us like it, with your characterization:

@jb4422

Yup, that’s the collective answer. It isn’t all exactly clear, and people even get different answers from different lawyers sometimes, so YMMV.

As far as this goes:

@jb4422

Though I’d disagree with the characterization of opining - @tommigun and others have posted solid references. That the net result is vague and unclear, well, is just making the point even louder.

&

@ridleyqlero

There’s also a lot of opining, which tries to rationalize, but doesn’t answer, and seems to muddy the waters. If the answer is there, kindly point it out

was not actually referencing any particular person (because there are many and anyway that would be patently unfair), but there is indeed a lot of mixing up of fact vs opinion happening in this topic about what should be the process and the actual legal construct of the process.

Nevertheless am very grateful that so many of us take time to reach and guide one another.

It’s not lost on me that the Portuguese bureaucracy has inadvertently (or possibly intentionally) created uncertainty in the first place, leading us all to speculate, and our lawyers to give us diametrically opposing advice. I have spoken to at least 10 lawyers on the Portuguese GV program and none are mutually consistent.

In as much as the government wants foreign money, they still have not provided clear guidance on how success is achieved for those agreeing to the program.

Kudos to @susanayang whose posts (not just simply the ones above) are incredibly helpful.

Regarding this:

@jb4422

The thing being, once you get into a complex situation, well, it gets complex. Law can’t cover every situation. Especially if you try to avoid the obvious path (apply for all your kids etc under GV rules and pay up). And as your situation gets more complex, the less likely it is that there are going to be other people who have gone through the experience who also have time and inclination to answer your question here.

The question on kids is plain-vanilla in as much as any naturalization process inherently considers family units (similar to how the non-GV forms of PT residency also do so) and therefore families legitimately wonder whether including the kids on the GV application is helpful or even matters? The Law does cover the situation about child citizenship when linked to a PT parent (for example, the Portuguese Embassy in the US, which one assumes is referencing its own de-facto laws consistently in much-needed English!) however there are enough people across this forum (perhaps not this topic) that have said kids still can’t get citizenship and must keep re-applying till 18.

Lawyers advising on this who charge per application (including dependents) and the government itself (which does charge per application) wants to maximize revenue, but if children still cannot get citizenship after 5-years, then there’s unlikely to be a need for the children to be included in the GV in the first place. After all, the PT GV is an off-shore residency program, but there are also more-appropriate on-shore residency programs for those interested (and much easier to obtain!)

and on this:

@jb4422

When you’re talking about “what will happen 5-6 years from now” with respect to a program that hasn’t been around that long (in the grander scheme of things) or had all that many applicants (the bulk of whom are Chinese, and I’ve seen few of them here) …

Agreed. That’s why simply sticking to the current rules and law is important, but there are not any clear answers (as per the points above) about the conversion of residency into citizenship. We can leave the future speculation to another chat group.

Very much appreciate your discussion and clarity that this is perhaps a muddy mess!

[RidleyQLero]

Thanks for your post

@282cf5067c427e3f7493

I would say there is one clear path to citizenship and some unclear paths.

Definitely agree that there’s a lot of lack of clarity.

@282cf5067c427e3f7493

…This is the main path for adults, for children who will be over 18 after 5 years of residence, but can also work for children willing to wait until 18, either by doing successive GV renewals, or 5 years of GV and then Permanent Residence (which also requires a language test).

If the minor children (now & then) are unable to automatically obtain citizenship after paying for the GV application, then there may not be much point. It would be good for the government to provide that confirmation, rather than leaving it murky enough that applicants get hoodwinked.

Both of your points about “acquisition-citizenship” for PT-citizen-linked non-GV-spouses and non-GV-minor-children are well appreciated:

@282cf5067c427e3f7493

For spouses there is the less clear path of spousal citizenship once the main applicant is a citizen. It seems if you don’t mind waiting 6 years from naturalization to apply this is basically guaranteed. If just 3 years it may require the connection to the Portuguese community which is not well defined.

For minor children there is the less clear path of citizenship by declaration once a parent is a citizen. This also requires the connection to the Portuguese community which is not well defined. But trying this may still be faster than waiting until 18, which is the only guaranteed path.

Yes agreed that few want to necessarily want to wait till 18. The purpose of the GV is offshore-residency-leading-to-citizenship. Other avenues of less complicated forms of residency exist for those who want to be onshore.

Thanks again

[jb4422 (Jeff B)]

Thanks for your kind words. I can also get your frustration. If you’ve talked to 10 lawyers certainly you’ve done due diligence. That said, I’d suggest that the likelihood of getting a better/clearer answer on a forum like this is not that high.

I don’t imagine that it’s really all that hard to get the kids in one way or the other. I think kids on the GV just makes it so they can get citizenship at the same time in a clear fashion, and I would guess that doing so means they get in on the same terms as the parents, irrespective of the various other nuances of the law, and I bet even if they turn 18 half-way through. In talking to my lawyer, it’s clear that there’s the rules, and what actually happens. A lawyer can make arguments to SEF about this or that situation and get them to do X or Y if it makes sense. You just need the right lawyer. We’ve seen this just in the whole SEF appointment thing - some lawyers are better than others at making the system work.

That said, I’m going to go back to @susanayang statement from the other thread:

Portuguese Citizenship application after 5 years of Golden Visa

HI Prof David, sorry I missed your message. The citizenship approval takes 1 - 2 years. Please note it is not as simple as getting your kids the citizenship after your naturalisation. It can’t be done like that. They won’t be able to get their citizenship just because you become a citizen. I can’t stress enough that getting citizenship is not as easy/ simple as some of you think. And it is not a automatic process that when the parents become a citizen, their kids under 18 can become a cit…

“I can’t stress enough that getting citizenship is not as easy/ simple as some of you think.”

We keep getting told that GV will get you citizenship. That’s how it’s sold by all these firms and funds and some lawyers. Well, no. If you look at the laws implementing ARI, it only uses the word “shall” for permanent residence. You’re just eligible to APPLY for citizenship, with GV waiving the residence requirement, and also freezing the qualifications for your citizenship to be those in effect as of the point in time of your issuance of visa. There’s no “shall” about it. My lawyer agrees with susana on this.

Now, it’s not that Portugal makes it so all-fired hard to get citizenship, I don’t think. There’s some referents I’ve seen where there’s legal opinions/etc that say all you need to do is prove the language requirement as a “tie”. I suspect, like Susan, it’s not that simple in practice. However, from what I have gathered (from other sources and my lawyer), it’s just not that hard to create “ties”, either. Travel there more than the minimum 1wk/yr. (OMG I have to spend another week a year in the Algarve sitting on a beach with some vinho verde! TORTURE!!! ) Get a B-level in Portuguese instead of an A-level. Join AFPOP, all of EUR100/yr. Join FB AFIP and comment on stuff. Take a class on Portuguese history - Portugal was the first world-spanning European empire, after all, could be enlighening. Keep up on the news. Show that you care about the place and that it’s not just some monetary transaction to get an EU passport that oh then you’re gonna go somewhere else anyway. I think that this kind of thing is the “facade” that Portugal puts up that keeps the EU from really cracking down on their GV - showing it’s not CBI by some other name. GV programs are about residence, not citizenship.

I think if you treat it like some transaction, it’ll end up biting you. If you don’t, then it’ll probably all be just fine one way or the other. Of course we want a world with certainties, but it often doesn’t work that way.

Obviously this is all just my opinion, others are free to disagree and that’s fine. Personally, I don’t care. My wife and I love the place like we love Costa Rica. Even if we were to decide to move elsewhere eventually, we have friends there and are going to end up with pretty reasonable ties one way or the other, so I’m just not that concerned. I also really, really like my lawyer, so I have confidence they’ll work it out one way or the other. But I know it’s not that simple for others.

[RidleyQLero]

There are new citizenship rules about children and “filliation” at the age of 18

Is anyone informed on this topic?

Does that mean that the pathway is easier that once citizenship by the main GV applicant is achieved, then the adult children can automatically get Portuguese citizenship?

[anonymous69]

@RidleyQLero

There are new citizenship rules about children and “filliation” at the age of 18

Is anyone informed on this topic?

Looking at Amendments to the Nationality Law published | Caiado Guerreiro

This seems to only apply to children born after the father becomes a citizen, but the father is only added to the birth certificate after the child turns 18.

I don’t think it applies if the father naturalizes after having the child.