I highly doubt Portugal is basing its governance on posts in an online forum. They have big problems if they doā¦
Curious that we suddenly have two users (one brand new) running around telling everyone to be nice to the government though. If I believed your free advice, it would make me wonder!
Who is this brand new user that youāre smearing with more FUD? My first post was in Feb 2021, more than two years ago.
Never mind the fact that youāre grossly misrepresenting the pushback against toxic posts that misrepresent the law and strive to create a panic among the readers.
I am sorry JM, but the last time they made the change I am 99% sure the Constituional Court stated the changes had to be in the future giving people who had bought property and were applying time before the cut-off. That would do to the disadvantaging of a minority, which is one of the principles of the Constituional Court. It is to protect a minority against a majority and we all have standing because we have invested in Portugal, have NIF numbers, bank accounts, etc.
I have not have time to dig through the court rulings because the proposals went back and forth for nearly a year.
I think this forum and a couple of others that are starting are helpful in sharing information that brings us hope, but also educates us and hopefully begins to arm us for a pre-emptive education campaign (my personal goal) which is based in the laws of Portugal. I am having to back track from my previous post on the logic of the argument before the Constitutional Court of the Republic to my original analysis of the Portugal GV.
I just went to the main SEF web-site and then went to the ARI section. WOW, what an uplifting read. Because it spells out the entire process for the ARI and what we all should get for our investment from beginning to citizenship and references the applicable acts and diplomas.
Everybody, here it is in writing from the SEF giving us the outline of you do X, then following Y process you get Z or ZZ. It is all based in law and is a promise of the government based on the manner the ARI was constructed in their Acts/Laws including the amendement that went into effect on 1/1/2022. We just need to do our fact and cite checking, then review the Constitutional Court opinions on this law and others that are similar and we have a home run that means the ARI stays in place until X date when they stop accepting ARI applications.
Per what I have read in the news and heard on TV and from quotes, many in all the branches of the Portuguese Republic want to end the ARI / Golden Visa Scheme. Well, so does the EU. It will stop, but the issue for Portugal is they have to do it constituionally and legally. If they do not, this will end up in the EU Court of Justice and boy will the EU Commission not want to get an unfavorable ruling which as proposed by the Government now it will.
I got a question about those that do not have an application number. I am not sure, but I believe in my initial 12+ months ago reading about the amendment that changed where you could buy property (population density and GDP being the two factors) I think the constitutional court stated that the effective date of the law had to be prospective( in the future) not immediate because of the disadvantaging of people already who purchase property, but not submitted. So for those who have applied there is hope. I just need to dig some more on the rulings and principles of the 4 governmental bodies of the Portuguese republic: The President of the Republic, the Government, The Assembly of the Republic and the Constitutional Court. The post Salazar constitutional was intended to create an equal and fair society for all involved with Portugal, not just citizens.
With this being said, all media reports and the people I have talked to in Portugal or connected with companies that have a vested interest in seeing the GV program continue, like Mercan, have said 1) no one in the Government of the Republic ( Prime Minister and Council of Ministers), 2) many if not a majority of the Assembly of the Republic and 3) the President of the Republic do not like the ARI program.
That being the case, it is well documented that the President of the Republic, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, is a constitutional lawyer. He has come out publicly and called the Government of the Republicās āMore Housingā law a āPoster Lawā which just highlights and fixates people on the party platform while not solving anything. You all read the news stories. President Rebelo de Sousa from the PSD party, not the PS party of Prime Minister Costa and the majority of the Assembly of the Republic. He has said and so has his predecessor from the PSD party that their job is to attempt to ensure Portugalās place for foreign direct investment.
People are asking why the Prime Minister and current Government of the Republic made up of the Prime Minister and the entire Council of Ministers, et. al. are doing this if it is unconstitutional or plainly illegal.
This is a plan and simple POPULIST move because the Prime Minister and some of his Ministers was about to be ālynchedā by the public for the continued increased cost of housing. His Government is about to publish multiple proposals to amend Acts or create new Acts (answering a question someone else had) for the Assembly of the Republic to read (their first action is to read whatever is sent) of which one of the proposals will contain the ARI changes bundled with something popular the Government wants to pass. The Assembly can potentially vote with 20% of the Assembly to send one or more of the proposals to the Constitutional Court, hash out in the various committees of the Assembly, and then read again before a final vote after which it goes to the President for his review/rejection/punt to the Constitutional Court) as well as at least one decree that will go straight to the President for his his review/rejection/punt to the Constitutional Court). Whenever something is set to the Constituional Court there are time frames on when a ruling must be made between 25 days for things sent from the General Assembly and X days (cannot find it) for things sent from the President.
All of my Portuguese friends tell me this is the way Prime Minister Costa and the Socialists have worked under his leadership for years, but the PSD has not been strong enough or organized enough to unseat him because he plays the populist game and the general population all think he will wave his magic wand and what he wants will come true. Unfortunately for Portugal that was the Salazar authoritian regime so people keep voting Socialist not PSD or one of the other parties.
For those worried about retroactive and why the SEF is still accepting applications:
This is directly from the English translation of the constituion:
Article 18
ā¦
3. Laws that restrict rights, freedoms and guarantees must have a general and abstract nature and may not
have a retroactive effect or reduce the extent or scope of the essential content of the constitutional
precepts.
Until whatever related to ARI becomes law, they cannot stop accepting or processing ARI applications. This article is why the change that went into effect on 1/1/2022 was well known ahead of time. No retroactive nature to any law that restricts rights, freedoms or guarantees This would indicate they cannot change the ARI retroactively because it was a guarantee. You do and pay X and Y and you get X. They can stop the ARI from continuing, but not the program itself. It restricts our rights and guarantee from the state.
Another gem from the Constituion of the Republic of Portugal.
Article 22
(Liability of public entities)
Jointly with the officeholders of their entities and organs and their staff and agents, the state and other
public entities are civilly liable for actions or omissions that are committed in or because of the exercise
of their functions and result in a breach of rights, freedoms or guarantees or in a loss to others.
This is my favorite clause so far coming from the litigious American system. If they restrict our rights and make our investments lose value, not have the value they would haveā¦ Here is why the Prime Minister on Thursday said everything in his proposals had to go through the Assembly and the President who decide, so he is not held liable. Very smart.
86b6c33b570ae1dfe606 is brand new and telling people to stop posting.
I disagree that people being afraid of the government making good on its promises to destroy the GV system is toxic. People are worried, it is natural to post about it.
Nobody has claimed to be a laywer, so this is all guesswork anyway, and sometimes people will be wrong. Thatās no justification for attacking them or telling them to quit posting. And it definitely doesnāt make it FUD (nor toxic.)
Thinking one is right does not make everyone else wrong, especially intentionally wrong (as if there is something to gain from that.)
Hi ohbee,
Correct, we are not lawyers, but I worked with lawyers for 20+ years and ghost wrote more pleadings in the US than most lawyers. I have an area of expertise the lawyers did not. If you use logic based on legal fact and supported by Portuguese legal systems of their Acts and Decrees as opposed to laws, statutes and case law in the US or English sense, we can easily educate ourselves. That turns us from afraid to empowered and gets us to the point of standing up before this challenge to our rights needs to be litigated by those of us in the Constitutional Court.
āApplying for Portuguese citizenship, by naturalization, provided all other requirements set out by the Nationality Act are fulfilledā
At the time of our application to a GV, we have not applied for citizenship. We donāt apply for citizenship until at least 5 years later. Some people donāt ever apply for citizenship.
So the rules of the Nationality Act are not grandfathered.
My lawyer warned me last year (before I applied for a GV) because I specifically asked about changes to the law that citizenship will be subject to the rules at the time of application (for citizenship).
86b6c33b570ae1dfe606 is an anonymous poster. Anyone with anonymous posting privileges has been on the site long enough to earn that trust level. You can verify this for yourself in the privacy thread. Your assertion that the poster is brand new is factually incorrect:
The problem is not being afraid of the government or expressing opinions. The problem is making factual assertions that are incorrect, e.g. āThe law only requires them to provide a single 2 year visa; they have no legal obligation to renew it.ā Another reader is likely to believe that this is definitive community knowledge, not a wild and pessimistic guess. If that person had written, āI donāt know whether they are obliged to renew the visa after 2 yearsā, that would be fine and reasonable.
I greatly value the posts that cite their credible sources, provide persuasive knowledge and analysis. I do not value posts that spread disinformation and sow panic.
@ohbee youāre free to do as you please, but if I can offer a constructive suggestion, perhaps you could leverage your unique situation into positive action on behalf of yourself and the whole community. You are the only person to pursue the cultural donation route that I know of. I compliment you for that and credit you with being perhaps the most sympathetic case of all GV holders, current and former, and I consider that high praise because all of the GV people Iāve met have been awesome. Why donāt you write an op-ed for Correio de Manha or Expresso? Write letters to the PM and the housing minister and President Marcelo.
GV people have been totally silent in the face of insidious attacks against our character. Thatās to our detriment. Letās all start working, to the best of our ability, to show the people of Portugal who we are and what great neighbors we will be.
Good idea. Happy to help edit or whatever
Broadening this idea, I think it would help if we could identify a reputable and sympathetic sponsor within the Portuguese legal / political community to headline an op-ed. The sponsor could present a couple concise paragraphs celebrating the contributions of the GV program to the Portuguese economyāhow it benefits real, normal peopleāand debunking the lies and calumny about GVs (money launderers, terrorists, oligarchs, etc.): the vetting process is extremely thorough and uncompromising, and I believe it was recently celebrated as being a model of best practices by some big international organization (I forget the details now). Then, three to five stories of GV holders who invested their life savings, meaningfully contributed to improving the economy, learned the language, and dreamed of a future life in Portugal despite current obstaclesāwork, family caregiving, etc.
Iām willing to post this idea on this public forum because I believe that this is a noble and honest project. All of the GVs Iāve met have been regular people who love Portugal and made an uncomfortably large investment for the privilege of securing a future in Portugal when the time is right.
Weāve let our opponents control the narrative for too long. It is time for us to be seen as good people making a positive contribution. We are exactly that. Kudos to @garrett for volunteering, and Iāll gladly contribute real elbow grease too. And I know other GV people in real life who are also on board.
Another observation: I have taken the opportunity in Portugal to cultivate social connections who are strongly engaged in the political parties that lead the charge against GVs. Thereās a mirthful moment after theyāve gotten to know and like me, when I reveal that I have a GV, and the cognitive dissonance boils over. Then it dies down and they accept my assertion that GVs are decent, normal people, not the nefarious criminals that their thought-leaders have made us out to be. And Iāll hazard a guess that it counts as a strike against the credibility of those leaders who were trashing us.
And although it is anecdotal, every single Portuguese person Iāve spoken with (maybe a dozen) about the campaign to kill the GV, including some intense advocates from the left parties, deems it completely inconceivable that this would be applied retroactively to people already in progress. That word is intentional: inconceivable. Iāve heard again and again from Portuguese citizens: it is fundamental to the Portuguese legal system that laws can not be applied retroactively, and promised benefits can not be taken away.
I like this idea. I can ask my attorney tomorrow if they are someone they know who is the most reputable is willing. The problem is there are no statistics about the GV program that I have seen. The only stats I have seen are from Mercan, with whom I invested and how they have employed so many people, etc. Mercan already have an attorney who wrote an article last week.
We need to get a multi-pronged approach going in the Newspapers like you said about what GVās bring, how we contribute money to the economy and how the government is going to plug that hole going forward. Then we need to get legal people to support the entire keeping the entire ARI program alive for those that have applied and will apply through the date any new ACT or Amendment to Act goes into effect. That would save all of us a lot of headache in the future, gets us what we were promised.
Unfortunately we are all on a boat that I am concerned about. The brain drain that fled to the northern countries and continues needs to stop, but companies need to invest and start-ups need to happen. We all may have to pull together to make that happen as well, because this Government is not helping. Hopefully something will happen so there is a change of Government. Government = Prime Minister and Council of Ministers.
JM,
Agreed on applying for Portuguese Nationality means we have to comply with the law at the time, but if we can keep the ARI legal framework in place until that point 5-8 years for those that applied this year, they cannot point to 5 years of permanent full-time residence or another point that is exempted by the ARI legal framework. The ARI framework exempts us from that. I know it is in the amended Act when they set-up the ARI but do not have the citation right now.
They also, could not make the law any different for us than any other person applying for nationality, that I know is against the constitution, because I am reading the whole constitution now.
Sorry, I am willing to help in the articles whereever I can, but my Portuguese is not that great yet, because I just applied and am still taking classes.
I would not be so quick to concede that the nationality law can be changed underfoot, and I counsel that we take great care about stipulating our opponentsā hostile premises; it demoralizes us and emboldens them. I remember a high-profile legal case in the USA where the witness made a shocking concession on the stand that defeated his side in the blink of an eye. Strive to avoid giving ammunition to the opponent.
The idea that they can change the nationality law feels like a sneaky attempt to exploit a loophole, inconsistent with the constitutional spirit of Portuguese law. As you and @tommigun ascertained, the law explicitly establishes our right to apply for citizenship after 5 years in the program. If they change the citizenship law to freeze us out, that seems like an unconstitutional, ex-post-facto deprivation of our legal rights.
Iām not suggesting that we stick our heads in the sand or refrain from examining and shoring up any vulnerabilities in our case, but this idea that they can change the law doesnāt seem consistent with Portugalās fundamental legal guarantees and related jurisprudence.
Anyway, thank you again for all of the fantastic research and enthusiasm!
Iām sure weāll have plenty of help with skilled translation from native speakers if this project comes to life. Language should not be a barrier to participation.
I think it would be good to collect a multitude of testimonials, then let the Portuguese headliner pick the best N.
If what you are suggesting is to have people like us who care about Portugal help to inspire start-ups and mentor Portuguese on starting and running businesses, I would be up for that. I run a very successful business in the US. Often part of nurturing businesses requires providing or raising investment capital. I will be very honest - at this point i am reluctant to raise funds or to invest anymore in Portugal until I see the winds change and an end to threats of arbitrary and retroactive implementation of laws and confiscation of private property. But I would be delighted to help with time and energy if people in Portugal are willing to take the input.
I am suggesting that we offer support to new businesses as mentors and connectors. I am not willing to invest in Portugal either until the government and legal situation changes. I worked hard for my money so I am not about to endanger it anymore than I have with the Portugal GV.
I invested in MedCapital and they are investing in healthcare, entirely in Portugal. The locals are not particularly happy with the public system so I hope they will benefit from the additional private alternatives that will be made available. Itās hard to claim no jobs will be created in the new facilities and that GV does not create jobs. No Portuguese investors have bought into this fund, perhaps because we are dumb money. In that case the Portuguese government should be particularly happy because we are realizing investments that would not happen otherwise.
BTW, the hospital group Luz Saude is almost entirely owned by Fosun, a Chinese group. Fosun also bought a huge chunk of BCP, which happens to be my bank.