Class action lawsuit?

I’m sorry I used the line about Chinese and Russians. The former came from 37 years of living in and near China, so forgive me my ignorance.

But it hardly matters what the “truth” is, what matters in relation to the original topic is the perception among the general public in Portugal, that the Golden Visa program is a siphon for money of questionable source by people who want only a Portuguese passport and no genuine contribution to Portugal. Whatever the truth, there’s no denying that that is the perception. It’s repeated in the Assembly every year and in letters to the Editor.

It’s this perception which ensures that a class action lawsuit over the Golden Visa mess would get no public sympathy. That’s why I agree it should be a last resort, but not entirely ruled out.

But I still feel a need for some action, which I why I advocate for a letter writing campaign. Send some positive reasons to SEF as to why they should pick up the pace. Let them see that they’re dealing with real people’s lives, same as they are with refugees, family reunions, D-7s, and so on. I really think they’ve forgotten that, when they take 9-12 months just to renew a GV.

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This isn’t about “eligible” or “ineligible”. Obviously there are rules, and those who meet them are in theory let through.

What we’re talking about here, going all the way back to the beginning, is the staff of SEF, and how they are handling the actual applications. Either the GV applications are being used as sort of political football, or SEF’s staff as a whole has a dim view of the GV and has been stuffing the applications in the bottom of their drawers or something. Anecdotal evidence would suggest the latter. It is possible that part of that is due to a perception of GV folks as “rich folks buying passports”. The more I understand of Portuguese culture, the more I can see how the Ordinary Pedro/Paula may well not appreciate this, whatever the government may think and whatever the financial realities might be. And while it’s nice to believe “well there are rules and they must be followed and it’s their duty to do their job efficiently”, that belief is the product of a certain view of the world, a certain belief system about how things should work and what our mutual obligations are to each other, and this is hardly a universal sort of thing.

So while there are eligibility criteria in law, there is another set of “eligibility criteria” being applied. And so yes, the person who actually wants to move there IS seen as a “good gal” versus the Plan-B’er/EU-passport-seeker being seen as the “evil bloke taking advantage of the system for the profit of some corrupt ministers”.

It is nice to say “well then the government should just tell them to do their jobs because the government disagrees”. Right, because that works so well everywhere else. This is a country where getting your driver’s license within a year is something of a victory and getting a SNS number really seems to depend more on who you know and who you can get to work the system for you than any actual eligibility or availability.

One might complain “well we’ve made this transaction/we were told X/”. True. But you are subject to the whims of the culture involved. That old saying “you pays your money and you take your chances”


So to summarize, what I think Lourenco is saying is that while it may well feel good to file a class action lawsuit in the footsteps of that lawsuit, it also may well backfire in truly unexpected ways, especially given the current world political situation, and he has pointed at a case (or two) where it most definitely has.

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There are always some unfriendly opinions from middle class i.e ordinary Pedro/Paula about the GV. However, does public opinion make any impact to the government’s decision on this GV scheme ? I personally do not think so. Politicians do not care about the public interests. Only thing they care is to make their own profit. GV has been established almost 10 years now. Portuguese government understands well the pro/con of its program. But they want to continue and indeed they keep the program running. Why? Because it brings money to them without making any direct damage to their own citizen. There is no doubt that if a Gv fund is approved, the fund managers would surely need to give back some money to the goverment. Nothing is free in this world. Even the law firms all have some certain connection or they are relatives to politicians (cousins, uncles,
).
I do not think the public opinion has any impact to this GV scheme. There are some opposing political parties that might use public reaction to GV as a tool to fight each other and consequently negociate the benefits between parties. Internally PT shutdowns the GV themselve is not something going to happen. Unless there is an order from top leaders of EU, then they have to shutdown. I believe that it is the only scenario which could force the portuguese govermen to shutdown the GV.

Someone here in this forum has mentioned that the Russian applicants have been quitely approved and cards have been issued to them. The EU has made a quite strong statement against the Carribean passports. But until now, it is all lip-service. No action at all till now. It is hard to believe that the EU politicians kill their own cash cow.

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8 posts were merged into an existing topic: SEF Pre-Approval : Sharing Status

A post was merged into an existing topic: SEF Pre-Approval : Sharing Status

And now can we resume the original topic of this post? What is the feeling here? It seems like the consensus is: sit back and do nothing and wait forever and a day. Is there no interest in even writing letters to your regional SEF office? Can someone explain the harm in doing so?

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Hi, Lourenço: I am speaking with the fear of the “unknown unknowns”. You ask “can someone explain the harm in doing so?”, and I find that question impossible to answer - because I don’t know the harm. But I am concerned about the potential harm. One never knows how a bureaucrat or politician will react to real or perceived criticism of his/her fiefdom. As you noted in an earlier post, your lawyer was aghast at the idea of writing a letter. I am still awaiting my first residence card, and I don’t want my name on some list within SEF of “troublemakers”. Since I have no idea whether or not such a list could or would be made, I have to assume it is a possibility.

What might be better than letters from us is a joint letter from the “industry” - lawyers, fund managers, real estate developers, banks, etc. That way our specific names aren’t attached, but the issue is brought forward by a group of Portuguese citizens who are able to explain how the process is harming the Portuguese economy and their particular areas within the industry.

That will require some organization of the various groups, some of whom compete with each other, but all of whom have a financial interest in ensuring the program works. I can certainly speak with my fund group, banker, and lawyer to see if they have interest in getting such a thing going. I know my banker was working on a group meeting back in June, but I haven’t heard anything since then. Your thoughts?

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We don’t know the actual ground reality here. An underfunded government organization with covid pandemic and sudden influx of refugees may be doing the best they can. So I give them the benefit of doubt.

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I’d be interested, but curious as to what folks are wanting as the desired outcome? For me, I want the legal residency period to start 3 months after application (or whatever the law states) so that these delays do not impact the timeline for applying for citizenship. That would be satisfactory for me.

However, I realize for others, a simple backdating of this is not enough as this delay has materially impacted their ability to live and/or travel.

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Personally I just want prompt processing of my application. I applied in early december and still haven’t gotten pre approval even, let alone biometrics or the residency card!

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I get that people are frustrated but history shows that SEF will process your application and issue your card in 15-20 months.

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I think this is a important point. If we are afraid of angering the SEF, then we do not need to sue SEF for the lack of appointments. We can suit to change the interpretations of the law. There are several directions to go. First is when the clock of citizenship should start. I guess it is hard to legally change anything here. Second is how long the property/fund should be held. I think we have some legal hope here. If it can be clarified that we only need to hold it for 5 years sharp, then we at least do not have to lock our money in a fund/house for 8 or 9 years before we get permanent residency.

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I have an important update about my letter writing proposal. It might have worked! I’ve started a new thread on this topic, since this one has zig-zagged into many peripheral topics, all valid and interesting, but I want to concentrate on what actions we can positively undertake in order to regain some control over our own situations.

My new thread is here:

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I think that emphasizing the financial aspect of “locking our money” is not the wise course. That only makes us appear as opportunistic as we are caricatured as being. If there’s any challenge to the interpretation of the law, it should be based on equal application of the law. We pay fees in excess of 5 times that for other visa types. Yet our waiting time is also in excess of 5 times that of other visa types. At the very least, our processing times should be the same as for D-7, family reunion, and other visas. What’s more, their own guidelines at the time I applied stated unequivocally: processing must take place within 3 months of a completed application. Our lawyer said it will be likely 6 months. For me, it was 15 months! Meanwhile, another US citizen I know applied for an employment visa at the same time (the person was living in Portugal) and was approved in under 3 months. This is a gross violation of equal treatment under their own directives. That, I think, is a better basis for a lawsuit than that we should be able to recoup our investment after exactly 5 years.

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Great point! But aren’t we afraid of SEF retaliation if we take this approach?

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Personally I’m hoping they all get fired when the SEF is disbanded, I’m not sure retaliation could be worse than the state of things now

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I fully agree!

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I have tried writing several letters. I have gotten nothing back except the same replies over and over. I am ready for this class action lawsuit. We have been scammed and I would like my money back + compensation for all the wasted hours and stress created by this process and all the lies told by all parties involved along the way.

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Would you be able to share as to whom you sent your letters? E.g. SEF regional director or national director?

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It’s appreciated to get so precious information from all of participants of this topic who provided different views and approaches to GV in Portugal. As many investors I got stuck with GV in Portugal with unclear perspective with one more complication “bonus” in actual environment - having of Russian citizenship. I also aware about 20+ investors from Russia who is in similar position as me. Between them is group of 10 people who are ready to follow through “soft power” approach (e.g., paper letter to SEF instead to follow into lawsuit).Jus be aware that we can add some “weight” in case mass action to SEF.

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