Me too, admin please pm me for number or share yours
Also interested in learning moreā¦ how do I join the WA?
Hi all, everyone in the group has admin. But I will add you myself. Just very busy so best to ping other people in this thread by DM.
I looked into one of these companies, and it appears to be a shell company. They offer a lot of guarantees.
If you look at the history of this particular company, you will find one founded a long time ago that keeps dissolving and then reappearing as something else with the same founder.
There is a lot of risk in the fund market and a lot of risk in the real estate market until you go above 500K.
After 500K in real estate, everything becomes just regular market risks. If you are unwilling or unable to put the money in for a market apartment.
There are two funds that I found that are great from a management standpoint, but high risk in that they are PE and VC.
On our WhatsApp thread, we have identified 3 opportunities so far. One is a rural property at 280K. We received some concessions from the seller. But no one felt that it had resale. We are looking at one other in this category, but the seller is not likely to offer concessions.
We have one downtown in the main tourist area. We are negotiating a 30% concession on the price and then some guaranteed rental income. That hasnāt been finalized. Once it is finalized, we will get a formal independent appraisal form a major firm, and also an inspection. It is a beautiful old building that has been rebuilt and updated for earthquake standards. However, the units are small (50SQM) and the concessions take the form of very large rental guarantees (6% over 5 years at signing, and then some percentage of the actual rental income after that). So, the concession is taxed. The reason for this is that that the units are already priced around 350K. We have 5 in and need 4 more.
Another property is offering small discounts (3-8%) if we can get 8 buyers. It is in a quieter, up-and-coming neighborhood and has an elevator.
Please message anyone on the thread above as everyone has admin in the group.
I imagine that the truth is that most of these real estate deals most of the time arenāt scams, and the people involved are making reasonable efforts to do what they say. Just that sometimes things just go wrong, and there arenāt a lot of guarantees involved, and some people are going to end up screwed, and thatās how it is too. And itās a high margin business so you have to just accept youāre gonna get bent over somewhat - or ex. mercan, youāre not going to get some fantastic deal. And the less money you have the more youāre likely to get bent over, because thatās how the world works too - you pay more for the 1qt milk in the bodega versus the 3-1.5gal at costco.
Itās a reality thatās hard for us to stomach.
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Hi Peter, my name is Anil. We just paid our first retainer fee to our agent Henleys. They suggested a hotel project which Iām not interested in. Definitely interested in buying a property but as you mentioned, I found the GV350K listings to be quite overpriced. So, I found your thread very relevant. Iām based out of Singapore. Happy to join your group on whatsapp.
Iām debating between D7 and GV right now. Would like to move on it in the next couple months.
So if you guys have some better options than hotel 280k/350k hotels, I might be interested to learn about them. We also donāt mind living in the place we buy.
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Hi All! Am also going through the process of deciding between Fund and RE investment and am leaning towards RE. The idea of a private investment is very interesting to get better value for the dollar. Would also interested in the joining the WA group to get more details. Could one of the members pls DM me and I can send my number? Thanks!
Likewise. I am coming into this from the UK but my income is in the US so my tax situation is complex. Having looked at fund options Iāve concluded real estate is probably better and contrary to popular opinion there is a lot of leverage available in the buyerās favor right now. I made a pre-lockdown trip and have some Portuguese friends looking for me.
I think that is the key - you need local help that you can trust to filter through the options and sift out the overpriced stuff - you need to not look like a GV investor if you will. Not an option for a lot of us.
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Hi everyone. Iām new here but think I might be potentially useful to the discussion. Iām a small/medium scale RE developer in Lisbon, not involved in GV type deals (I always found the way it distorts the market and how investors typically get exploited kind of gross!). However, I found my way here after a UK based friend asked about GV via RE investment and have been researching how she can qualify by investing 350K in one of our resi development projects (it seems relatively straight forward) and taking a share of profits.
Iām not here to sell anything, weāre not really setup for this kind of thing or interested in offering rental yield guarantees etc. all seems like a bit of a headache tbh! But found the discussion interesting and thought Iād make a couple of basic observations from my side of the market, many of which have already been discussed here, but perhaps useful to have it confirmed from the āotherā side.
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Developers/companies targeting GV investors are generally making very high margins at your expense. Specifically, legal and administration fees are inflated, and more so the unit/apartment sales prices are too.
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When developers take on GV investors, theyāre doing it instead of having to raise expensive debt or equity investment to fund their projects. Theyād normally be paying 9-12% p.a. on private debt, and the equivalent of 14-18% p.a. on equity investment to fund their projects, so cash from a GV investor is comparatively cheap, even if they package up the sale with rental yield guarantees etc.
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I think your collective bargaining strategy is very smart! Banks are tightening up funding conditions and loan-to-value ratios in Portugal are declining, so youāve definitely got some leverage right now.
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Risk of overall market decline is real given the pent up pain of 2020 thatās thus far been deferred by bank loan moratoria etc. (when people start having to pay interest again, all bets are offā¦) And buy-back guarantees probably arenāt very reliable given the ease with which a company can declare bankruptcy on a project and leave you struggling through the Portuguese courts (nightmare) to get compensated.
Happy to answer any specific questions related to local market dynamics or whatever if itād help.
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Thank you so much Alastair!
I appreciate you reaching out to us. Agree that the 350K option is a trap. I have found a lot of scary stuff doing due diligence on the companies that work in this space, both in real estate and in the fund sector.
If you dangle a GV in front of a bunch of green foreign investors with cash, you are just asking for scoundrels to come in.
Our group currently has about 20 members. There are a few empty buildings out there, so lots of possibilities for collective bargaining. I see FAW Partners does social impact investing. Can you tell us more about what you do, and whether there is anything you are working on of interest to a group of buyers?
When the mortgage moratorium expires, there could be a lot of pickings. It seems relatively few folks are trying to dump their buildings quite yet, but there are a few.
āTrapā is probably not the correct term. It should be obvious that going through a Golden Visa Developer would add additional costs to the process. To the extent that one could act as their own developer that would save money but it also introduces other risks. This concept of a collective bargaining is interesting and has a lot of potential if it can be pulled off. I am concerned that it would be difficult to get 20 people to agree on a specific building and timing the purchase to make sense.
I think all the points and concerns you raise here are completely valid. āHerding catsā springs to mind, but cats with a lot of money on the line!
Can someone add me to the Whatsapp group as well? Iām interested. Thanks!
I would like to be added to the Whatsapp group. Please PM me with the details.
Thanks
-amit
Hi Deepak, will appreciate if you can share this with me on a personal chatā¦ thanks, Niraj
Hi Anil, I too just appointed Henley. Howās it going with them? Which hotel have u looked at with them. I am yet to get thereā¦
Hi Niraj,
Since you mentioned Henley, I am also talking to one of their lawyer, would you mind what are the costs they shared with you, i find their fees overpriced so wanted to see a way to negotiate.
Thanks
Bhavesh
Hi Bhavesh,
wouldnt be prudent to announce it in public. you may PM me.
Niraj
Moderator edit: Please donāt share personal contact details in public, use private messages instead.