Same fee I paid (for one person)
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Ours was quoted as €308,43 for the notary and another €300,00 for our attorney’s fees. He’s the same attorney handling our immigration issues.
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My lawyer quoted below:
Regarding our legal fees, our professional services amount to €1,500.00. This includes advising you throughout the process, preparing the will, and coordinating all steps and communication with the notary.
Please note this fee does not include the notary’s own costs nor any registrations that may eventually be required.
Is this reasonable?
half of this is reasonable.
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I agree with @jpgoldenvisa. That, plus the notario, came to about 1k euros, if memory serves me correctly.
Ditto - abt 1k€ for me.
No. It is not reasonable. The more expensive lawyers will charge about €850 plus notary fees. I’ve had a quote for €350+VAT plus notary fees.
€1500 (presumable plus VAT plus notary fees) is outright fleecing of a foreigner.
Thank you for the info!
Had a consultation this week with a lawyer from Areia Global and this may be useful to some in a specific situation like us. They focus on US-PT legal issues and have lawyers in both countries - we found then really helpful in case others need advice. We recently updated our US wills and this thread made us consider getting a PT will as well. What we learned: 1) If we did need a PT will, we should have done it simultaneously with re-doing our US will, 2) We do not live in PT and so are not tax residents. We would plan to have anything we own, revert to the spouse and children. For those reasons, though we own property and have investments in PT, since we don’t have any issue with that distribution, we do not need a PT will. 3) If we were tax residents in PT, we would need a PT will as it would take precedence. 4) A US living will is of no use in PT. If we stayed for longer periods in PT, it would be helpful to create a PT Living will and have it uploaded to our local hospital but as it stands now, since it is apparently a bit arduous to create this and (usually, not always) needs a SNS number, we will hold off until we move to PT.
Hope this helps someone.
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Don’t take this the wrong way because I may well be wrong, but your post implies that if you are not a PT tax resident and don’t live in PT, then you don’t need a will/estate plan in Portugal. For people considering applying for Portuguese nationality, I think the more important consideration is whether you own property in Portugal and die there as a Portuguese citizen. In such scenario, your assets would possibly (probably) be distributed according to Portuguese inheritance law if you don’t elect otherwise. I think it is irrelevant whether you are a tax resident or if you lived longer periods in PT. So, at first blush I am questioning the advice you received, or possibly I am misinterpreting what you have written.
Yes that is true partially. We are ok with our assets being distributed according to PT inheritance laws, as I wrote. So, we don’t need a PT will at this time because we are ok with the default. If we were not ok with basic PT distribution after death, then we would need a will now even though we do not yet live there or act as tax residents.
One major benefit of a PT will, as I understand it, is it will significantly shorten the time for transfer of assets to heirs. It can be accomplished in months rather than years. This has a practical benefit - if the main applocant dies before PR, there is an argument that the spouse can continue if they own the GV asset. If that asset was split, due to Portuguese inheritance laws, no one individual would have the ability to continue since the asset might be split into thirds (assume spouse and two kids).
You don’t need to redo your US will. Under almost every state’s laws, a subsequent testimonal document (the PT will) takes precidence over the former (US will). As long as the PT will states it only applies to PT assests, your US will will still be in effect for everything else. Even if your estate is done via Revocable Trust, you can execute a revocation for the PT asset. PT doesn’t recognize our trust system of inheritance anyway.
Just my understanding of things. Not a lawyer.
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We have golden visa Fund under 1 person’s name, othe person is spouse and we have 1 kid. Do we need a will? What happens if primary account holder of Golden visa fund dies and there is no Will? We are citizens of another country, living in Portugal on Golden visa ARI residency cards. Just trying to see all angles. We just moved to Portugal so have no other assets other than few thousands in bank accounts.
I must specify, the golden visa fund has over 650.000 Euros balance
See my post directly above yours.
Usually jurisdiction over your estate goes to your country of closest connection. (It’s useful to keep in mind that a big part of what we’re talking about is which country can assert a right to tax your deceased estate!).
Whether you have a close connection is tied to a number of indicators: nationality, tax residency, physical residency, where you own your primary property etc. If you live in PT, are tax resident, have the bulk of your wealth here, and are basically settled, PT would have a case to assert jurisdiction. However, there is a convention that allows you to opt for your country of nationality. What we - and many others here - have done is split our PT and non-PT assets and reflect that choice in our PT and non-PT wills.
From what you’ve described, your 650k would currently be dealt with under your current will. But, like I said, that may change over time.
I’ve seen reports here of lawyers recommending to their clients that even if PT has jurisdiction they don’t need a will because their assets will anyway go to the same people (spouse and children). Please don’t do that. It is terrible advice. The issue is not whether you’re ok with who’ll inherit under PT law of intestate succession, but that the state will have to go through a very lengthy process to confirm and validate independently of what your heirs say that those are the correct beneficiaries. The fundamental reason we write a will is to give the state this information.
I’m no attorney, but I would argue the opposite. The laws of the country in which the asset is located govern first and foremost. While many countries may choose to recognize the laws/proceedings of others, the jurisdiction of the asset takes precedence.
I am a lawyer and you’re wrong. Just think for a moment about the absolute chaos that would ensue for anyone who owned homes in multiple different countries, not to mention other assets, like shares. Do you really think that succession proceedings would be opened in the courts of 5 or 6 different countries?
Just for example, the law that you’ll see most often invoked in Portugal is REGULATION (EU) No 650/2012 (aka Brussels IV). It says:
The general connecting factor for the purposes of determining both jurisdiction and the applicable law should be the habitual residence of the deceased at the time of death. In order to determine the habitual residence, the authority dealing with the succession should make an overall assessment of the circumstances of the life of the deceased during the years preceding his death and at the time of his death, taking account of all relevant factual elements, in particular the duration and regularity of the deceased’s presence in the State concerned and the conditions and reasons for that presence. The habitual residence thus determined should reveal a close and stable connection with the State concerned.
It also says:
As a general rule: the law applicable to the succession as a whole shall be the law of the State in which the deceased had his habitual residence at the time of death.
But:
A person may choose as the law to govern his succession as a whole the law of the State whose nationality he possesses at the time of making the choice or at the time of death. A person possessing multiple nationalities may choose the law of any of the States whose nationality he possesses at the time of making the choice or at the time of death.
Hope that helps.
I think that kind of proves my point. What you quoted is EU law that governs members of the EU, not say… China or the US. To answer your question - if you have property or assets in 5 countries, yes, proceedings will be required in those 5 countries unless the same laws govern them all. And agreed - it isn’t fun! While the estate may be settled in the person’s domiciled locale, with lesser proceedings being required in the subsequent countries, some kind of proceedings are still required for those other jurisdictions. If there are contradicting laws, the jurisdiction governing the property (whether that be account/real estate, etc.) takes precedence.
Trusts and Portuguese forced heirship are great examples of how US law doesn’t extend to Portugal (exception for heirship only by means of a Portugal will utilizing the appropriate law allowing it).
My 2c: suppose you’re a citizen and resident of Syldavia, with real estate in PT, and in line for citizenship at Portugal. Like many countries, Syldavian law gives you the freedom to bequeath your assets any way you like, but by default refers foreign real estate to the inheritance law of the country it is situated.
Issues to be considered:
- Forced heirship in Portugal, may not be what you want
- Real estate vs other investments
- Conflict between laws of Syldavia and Portugal (renvoi)
- Portuguese citizenship which might happen in future
Belt and braces approach I’ve been advised:
- Make a Portuguese will covering only Portuguese assets, stating that you choose the law of Syldavia to apply to your Portuguese assets, “and therefore, I leave..[terms which are different from forced heirship]”
- Make a Syldavian will covering the residual estate other than Portuguese assets, explicitly defer to the Portuguese will to apply to Portuguese assets.
- Syldavian will also declares the choice of law for succession: “…under (EU) No. 650/2012 and any similar rules… as a Syldavian citizen at the time of making this will, I expressly choose the law of Syldavia to apply to my succession, regardless of my nationality at the time of death. References to Syldavian law in this section mean its internal substantive law, excluding conflict-of-laws provisions.”
This defuses renvoi and reinforces the same intentions everywhere, and (supposedly) faster to transmit assets in Portugal. Note that if Syldavia doesn’t allow dual citizenship, the time to lock in your will is before you get PT citizenship, under the “nationality at the time of making the will” provision.
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OK, so if I am living in the US but have a property in Portugal, is a Portuguese will required? I’d kind of like to avoid having to do it, but I guess I will if I have to.