Portugal GV Fund Comparison?

Answering a few questions here:
. Legal firm: Legal Square, in Lisbon
. Why Greytech II: I saw several people vouching for them, then I decided to check their structure, companies, etc. Had a couple of calls with them, including with one of the partners, and felt it was a good option. Then I spoke with the lawyers, who told me that they were used to Iberis and that the investments would fit the GV rules without problems, then I made the move.
For the records, I was planning to invest on something else related to real estate (another company that usually appears here), but I felt that their pitch was more of salespeople than investors (gut feeling, not scientific), and I lost the interest on them. Could have been a better $ option? Who knows. But so far, knowing that the process is moving well, I’m fine. I’m less interested in making money, and more interested in getting the GV and later on the citizenship.

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Hi All,

Some lawyers told me that even if you get approved for IMGA or BPI there is a concern that you will face issues in renewal. Anyone heard something similar? Did you ask your lawyers this question? Most of the lawyers I spoke to seem concerned that open funds are non-complaint and if someone complaints later they may reassess and refuse to renew.

Not sure how valid are these statements.

Hi All,
I am very grateful for all the helpful/insightful comments and resources posted so far. I have done some preliminary screening and I am curious about a fund called Insight that promises 3% annual dividend and the return of capital (or an apartment) at the exit point (6 or 7 years). I have seen this fund on some firm’s website but have never come across any discussion in this thread. So my question is, has anyone looked at/talked to this fund before? Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. This fund is supposedly unlevered and FACTA and PFIC friendly but I haven’t talked to the fund yet (but likely soon). Also, the Aston Gold fund is on my short list right now too and that seems to be viewed favorably in this group too, AFAICT. Any update on Aston Gold will be much appreciated too.

Personally I would never believe a guaranteed return or that you get all your money back at the end. In some sort of market crash I can easily see them going under, especially in a relatively poor country like pt

This is a big reason why I prefer open ended funds, wish we had better options though.

I see your point, Garrett. No guarantee is real here or anywhere. I think of it as a corporate bond position with maybe some real estate as collateral and you do sit higher on the capital structure (due to the guarantee) to recover whatever is left over.
As a mutual fund (public equity) manager in the US, I salivate over the fat fees in PT (public equity funds). Due to my work, I am very heavily exposed to market risk already so this is nothing more than a high risk bond substitute position in my view. the reward is not the return, but the visa. and I am okay with that.

It’s the first time I heard this, perhaps they were more interested that you will work with their own funds?

Speaking on the subject, looks like BPI really broke ATH recently, I wonder if a crash is immenent.

I wonder if the ATH is because of all the 350Ks coming in from GV buyers all trying to buy at the same time. If I was one of the other holders (not sure who the holders of these equities are in PT), this would be a good time to unload the holdings, but if you need PT equity exposure, where else will you go after liquidation? It is not like it is a big market with other options. So it feels like these higher prices may hold - the real risk is when all the tourists (GV investors) leave the market when their GV is done - the exit point will definitely create some pressure on price, but if the GV continues to be popular in future years, there will be even more growth so that correction will also be spread out over years, and you will still be fine if you invest this year.

I don’t believe the IMGA fund is substantially decoupled from the market as a whole right now, everything is going up. Don’t read too much into it :slight_smile:

Newbie on the site- have been consuming the 1000+ posts and wealth of knowledge posted- many thanks to you all.

We are interested in applying for a golden visa using the investment fund approach and hope to get in before the rules change at the end of the year.

I would appreciate clarification on the topic of PFIC and form 8621 (Which I’m told it’s a very complex form that takes professional tax individuals 40 hours to complete). As I understand it, US taxpayers with investment in foreign mutual funds in a PFIC (Passive foreign investment company) must complete form 8621 if the following conditions are met:

  1. At least 75% of the corporation’s gross income is “passive”—that is, derived investments or other sources not related to regular business operations.
  2. At least 50% of the company’s assets are investments, which produce income in the form of earned interest, dividends or capital gains.

So if I understand this correctly, are US investor that invest in a mutual fund that does not qualify as a PFIC would not have the burden of completing form 8621.

The questions I have are:
— which of the GV funds meet the US IRS definition of PFIC funds?
— Are any of the GV funds not considered PFIC funds, and therefore more desirable for a US investor. (from the standpoint of avoiding burdensome tax documentation).

I don’t believe I saw this information above on the thread. I’m not a financial or tax person so I greatly appreciate any assistance you can provide.

After spending several days reading this thread, and solidifying a plan to open a Bison Bank acct, and invest in a fund (deciding between IMGA, Portugal Gateway, BlueCrow), I received the following from Nuno at Bison Bank - Not sure how to proceed… :frowning_face_with_open_mouth:
I appreciate any alternative options you can provide. Roger

Dear Roger,
Thank you so much for your email and for your kind words.

  • Unfortunately, at this moment it is not possible to do all the procedures for the GV, open an account remotely, transfer the money, subscribing a Fund, issue the Declaration and up load the application, until year end.*
    I’m very sorry!
    Kind regards,
    Nuno

So sorry to hear that. Your best bet is to see if Big Bank can help you with the process assuming you want to do all this remotely. if you are in Portugal you may have more options.

I’m surprised - he did quote me a few weeks to open the account once he gets the papers I fedexed to him (should get there wednesday). I assume they’ve been inundated. Maybe you could do it with Millenium, or do it if you go there in person?

MillenniumBCP does not provide security account (to hold fund participation units) for a US person. From my experience, 2 months (considering Christmas holiday) is too short to operate remotely.

This is consistent with what the Pela Terra guys said in their webinar - that Bison is not taking any more customers this year because they already have too big of a backlog.

I hear big.pt is still open for business though. The Pela Terra guys were making a big pitch to actually go to Portugal given that timeline is very tight if you are starting now, as the real way to make sure timing works.

My own experience doing it remotely (I am US Citizen), is that it took just a tad less than 3 months from signing up a lawyer to application submission.

This makes me wonder, can US citizens sign up with any of the big banks in portugal in person, or do those all require residency?

Or maybe in other words, why do US citizens tend toward Bison, rather than the big portuguese banks- only because they allow remote account openings?

The big banks generally do not have depository services that are FACTA-compliant. Many of them have banking services that are FACTA-compliant but that’s not the same thing, since what is required here is brokerage services not banking services. There probably has not traditionally been enough business for the larger banks to bother with the sheer amount of headache that would be involved.

It’s not about having or having residency or even showing up in person. There’s reports of folks opening Activo or Millenium from remote, they’re popular with the D7 crowd, and that’s before having residency. But that’s just for basic banking.

One thing that is really concerning me at this point is the sheer amount of money that is flowing into these funds at this point. Just looking at my stuff, the amount of capital taken in just in 1H2021 is massive. It really makes me concerned about how some of these funds are going to effectively deploy capital in any reasonable time frame without overpaying for assets - or, alternatively, sitting on a bunch of cash at negative interest rates.

I’m sure this isn’t applicable to all cases, but it’s probably applicable to at least some of the funds. It’s one thing to set a target… it’s another thing to hit it so quickly.

Your concerns there are part of why I am nervous about closed funds. Give me a nice index fund like the IMGA one any day :slight_smile:

Hi everyone, just to share I have head the same re Bison. However, others like Millennium BCP and Atlantico seem to still have capacity for new accounts. Bordr (bordr.io) are estimating they can get an account open with Millennium BCP within a week from having all the documents ready so maybe worth giving them a try. Our clients have used them previously and have been very happy.