Will you apply Portugal Golden Visa knowing what you know today?

kramanat
The fact that we need a massive database and now this extra fields for lawsuits filed as part of a ā€˜processā€™ - absurd :slight_smile:

Defo should advertise this at seminars like the upcoming Portuguese Chamber of Commerce in the UK GV seminar on June 12th!

So new applicants can go into this with eyes wide open :scream:

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To paraphrase an ancient Chinese saying:

Defraud one person, become a prisoner.
Defraud everyone, become a king.

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hi guys,
i applied december 2021 and was approved 5 months ago but still no bio appointment :confused:
now my wife can apply but Iā€™m not sure if its worth it? what do u think?

What is your goal?

If you want to move to PT ASAP, there are better ways than PGV ā€“ D7, etc.

If you want a second citizenship ASAP, there are definitely faster and less risky / uncertain options ā€“ Caribbean, Turkey, etc.

If you just want a backup residence in a country outside your home country without having to move there immediately and without a path to citizenship, there many programs in various other countries that will give you a faster path to legal investment residency with clean paperwork.

If you are fixated on EU citizenship without needing to move there at any point until obtaining the citizenship and your net worth is under ~US$10MM and youā€™re unwilling to make a bet on a country thatā€™s currently non-EU joining the EU in the future and youā€™re willing to put up with 9-12 years of uncertainty before obtaining the citizenship, then PGV may still be your ā€œbestā€ bet.

For this purpose, there simply arenā€™t good options anymore. Malta is too expensive for us regular folk. Cyprus now says they will naturalize faster, but this is difficult to believe due to its track record, and this comes with a strict physical presence requirement. Greece is good for residence only, but is generally not naturalizing GVers. Spainā€™s official timeline to naturalization is longer and itā€™s no better than PT on process / paperwork dysfunction. Hungaryā€™s program is new, but it looks like naturalization will take about as long as PT (if at all) and may require physical presence.

Youā€™re tying up 500k EUR for 9 to 12 years in exchange for a, give or take, 50% (?) shot at EU citizenship within the same time period. Is that worth it? What really matters to you that you can do with EU citizenship, but canā€™t do with a combination of your current citizenship plus either Caribbean or Turkish?

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Excellent post from @Hippopotamousse
I believe folks get so fixated on the ā€˜what/howā€™ to do smth (in this case obtaining GV) that they lose sight of ā€˜whyā€™ they are doing it.
And if they come back to ā€˜whyā€™ there are plenty of options to exploreā€¦

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This line is true except for born nationals of Spainā€™s former colonies (e.g. Mexico, Colombia, even the Philippines which is not in Latin America, Puerto Rico which is not a sovereign country but a territory of the US, and Brazil a former Portuguese colony but still qualify due to their historic ties, etc.)

People from Ibero-American countries can apply for Spanish citizenship after just 2 years of physical residence in Spain which makes the their timeline to achieving an EU passport way quicker than Portugalā€™s. I did a comparison of timelines below (all estimates):

Portugal GV
Application for GV - 36 months / 3 years
GV Residency for citizenship - 60 months / 5 years
Application for citizenship - 36 months / 3 years
TOTAL: 132 months or 11 years

Spain GV for nationals of Ibero-American countries
Application for GV - 12 months / 1 year
GV Residency for citizenship - 24 months / 2 years
Application for citizenship - 12 months / 1 year
TOTAL: 48 months / 4 years

The main drawback of Spain GV though is that in order to qualify for citizenship, you have to reside physically in Spain for at least two years unlike Portugalā€™s GV program wherein you only have to visit the country 7 days per year for 5 years.

Also, Spainā€™s GV program via Real Estate investment is being phased out by the Spanish Government, although no date has been set yet. I could imagine a rush of investments and applications at the moment.

Even after closure of ESP GV, if one has EUR 500k to invest in PRT GV program and is from one of those former Spanish colonies, one could just apply for a Spanish Non-Lucrative Visa (NLV), pretty much a retirement visa and use the said funds as proof of financial resources. (More than sufficient to live in Spain for 2 years). The main drawback is one cannot do paid work, although doing volunteer work and studying are possible. After 2 years of physical residence in Spain, for those of former Spanish colonies, they can then apply for Spanish citizenship.

Just sharing for current and future forum readers who might be or have ancestry from Ibero-American countries and considering other quicker options to get EU residency and citizenship.

Personally, I find myself coming back to this question repeatedly since PGV has gone off the rails: Why would I continue to ride this roller coaster for another 6-8 years? What do I really want, and isnā€™t there a better (lower-cost, more certain, less infuriating) way to obtain it?

If Iā€™m going to continue on this path of obsessively checking this forum for PGV news every week for the next 6-8 years and most of the time not liking what I read, there had better be (1) a damn good reason; and (2) no better alternative to get what I want.

Yes, good point. My post was from the perspective of those with no ethnic- or descent-based advantage.

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Thanks for analising.
I think it is a bit ambitious to have estimated timeline 1 year for Spanish GV and 1 year for Spanish citizenship. I would put 2 years for each step.
In addition to this, if a latin american needs only 2 years for being able to apply citizenship in Spain, he could just sign up for a master or MBA 2 years. It would be also zero fee involved, just go to Spain and take MBA for 2 years and then apply for citizenship. While waiting for citizenship outcome, he could find part time jobs in restaurants.

I indeed have read majorly positive reviews of NLV from NLV holders themselves. In terms of initial processing time & renewals, itā€™s easy breezy. For citizens coming from previous Spanish colonies, NLV path is an absolute fairytale. I also often hear people say although bureaucracy and admin delays are common in Spain, itā€™s almost nothing compared to Portugalā€¦

Despite everything, I would still do this. Reason? Iā€™m British and I was devastated to lose my EU citizenship. I want it back, but to move to an EU country at this point in our lives would not be a good move for either mine or my husbandā€™s careers. Our current life is in HK. Weā€™d like our future to be in the EU, but thatā€™s a long way off (probably at least 10 to 15 years). We also donā€™t want to give up our British passports when we hopefully acquire a second, and PT allows this.

@Hippoptamousse why do you only put the chance at getting a passport at only 50%? To my knowledge, those GV investors who applied years ago and already completed their 5 years, are getting the passports, even though it takes time.

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100%. Add me to the list of furious Brits seeking to regain pre-Brexit rights.

My current thinking is that Iā€™m down the cost of the initial analysis fee, plus my lawyer fees. My investment has made me about +40%, so thatā€™s fine. The major cost will come with the first card and subsequent renewals, so provided the Nationality Act amendment works, Iā€™m happy for AIMA to take their sweet time with my application. When Iā€™m asked to pay ā‚¬17k for cards, Iā€™ll review the path to citizenship and take a view. But probably Iā€™ll stay in the game.

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For Brits thereā€™s always the low cost option of living in Ireland for 5 years and getting an Irish passport. I assume the only reason to get GV is if the Irish job market isnā€™t good enough or you want to avoid Irish taxes?

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That is an option for some, although my current circumstances require me to be in the UK. Plenty of Brits have discovered their Irish ancestry since 2016.

Like many, the attraction of the ARI is that your money takes up residence in Portugal on your behalf.

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Ireland maintains a non-dom / remittance basis of taxation, so maybe not as harsh as some might imagine

  1. AIMA / SEF (and the government in general) is absolutely deluged with residency and citizenship applications and therefore under heavy pressure to clear the queue. The unfair, underhanded attempt below to impose new conditions on existing applicants of another pathway (CPLP) under penalty of forfeiture indicates their level of desperation.
    AIMA charging ā‚¬400 to speed up residency applications, under penalty of forfeiture! - Residencies & citizenships / Portugal Golden Visa :portugal: - Nomad Gate Community

What other measures will these agencies and/or the government at large pursue going forward to clear the queueā€¦? To them, we and our applications are at best an inconvenience, a problem created by the mistakes of someone else, and at worst, a stain on the integrity of their nation.

  1. Even if AIMA doesnā€™t directly rob you of your status by adding new requirements with which you cannot comply, applicants still need to comply with all the existing ā€œgotchaā€ technicalities and informally imposed requirements over the next 6-9 years until your citizenship finally clears.
    Path to citizenship after 5 years on GV - Residencies & citizenships / Portugal Golden Visa :portugal: - Nomad Gate Community

My understanding is that applicants must maintain their investments continuously until naturalization is completed (in order to maintain residency status, which the people on these forums state is a requirement). Personally, my investment was in funds whose duration is not under my control, and was never contemplated to last 10-12 years from start of investment.

You must succeed in renewing your residence card every 1-2 years in order to have valid residency status, which is a requirement of citizenship application, yet many GVers are having great difficulty renewing:
GV renewals: are there really no appointments? - Residencies & citizenships / Portugal Golden Visa :portugal: - Nomad Gate Community

  1. Court system ā€“ in case AIMA / SEF or any government entity fails to follow the law (in addition to the ways they are already failing to follow the law), or tries to impose an unconstitutional requirement, then youā€™re at the mercy of the court system, which is hit or miss. Legal precedent isnā€™t a concept in PT, so youā€™re at the mercy of any judge who happens to take your case (if youā€™re lucky enough for that to happen in a reasonable timeframe). In this forum, itā€™s clearly noted that some judges donā€™t consider GV residency to have the same worth as physical residency, despite the purpose of the GV program to accomplish exactly that, and on that basis, they have denied efforts of GV applicants to force AIMA / SEF to follow the law.
    Is it Lawsuit time? (Processing times) - #434 by meyerhenry6243

Adding all these factors together, very roughly I put the chance of obtaining citizenship at a coin flip. Maybe everything works out, maybe the system screws me, or maybe I or my lawyers just make a mistake that cannot be fixed.

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I strongly believe that your chance to get citizenship is much higher than 50%.
The hardest part is to get the residency and renew its twice. Letā€™s put in 15K for lawsuits fee for renewing 3 times, then you will eventually get all cards along the way.
Once your citizenship application is submitted, it is not AIMA but IRN will analyse your case and basically everybody is the same. You donā€™t even have to be in the country. If you card is expired in between, file a lawsuit to renew it and enjoy your life elsewhere. If you do not live in Portugal full time, let the bureaucracy activate its own self-destruction. Iā€™ve never seen anyone waiting for citizenship outcome more than 5 years.

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Pls dont it make it sound like setting aside 15k for multiple lawsuits is a small thing to do. ā€¦

u really seem to be the kind of GV applicant portugal is vary off.

@AIMA, @portugal govt, @portugal judiciary- pls dont club his application with othersā€™.

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15k is not a small thing. It is my blood as well.
Butā€¦after considering all options, lawsuit is still cheaper :confounded::confounded::confounded:. I just simply cannot afford 1M or 2M for Malta Cyprus or Ireland option. Mine was filed last week anyway!

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In the past, especially during the Pandemic, the applications for visa/residency permits and citizenships have ranged from a few months to 3 years. But this has been improving and Spanish bureaucracy is catching up well. Even if we add one more year to GV application and citizenship, the timeline will still be faster (6 years) for those subset of applicants than the Portuguese GVā€™s timeline.

Just sharing some finer details on this. Spain distinguishes stay (estancia) from residency (residencia). Students in Spain on a student visa are under the estancia regime, the years of which are not counted/do not qualify for citizenship. So even if you study a doctorate degree for 4 years, as long as you are in Spain as a student (estancia) those do not count for citizenship application. However, in a recently passed law, there is a way to bridge this and convert the estancia to residencia after 3 years of study I thinkā€¦

On the other hand, if one studies in Spain, say an MBA for two years, under NLV (residencia), then those years will count towards citizenship. However, studying is usually not the main reason for NLV application. That being said, there are many NLV holders from Ibero-American countries who study in Spain (many do MBAs or Masters) to pass time while waiting for the 2-year residency requirement to apply for citizenship.