After much reading and apprehension, I'd like to ask for some context heavy feedback about starting my GV process

First off, to all those who have suffered, complained, sued, and celebrated: thank you for all your contributions to this site on the subject of the Portugal GV scheme. The anecdotal data is better than any book I could have read on the process and I feel far more informed than I anticipated.

That said, despite the stern warnings of those like @ohbee and @ThroughtheMill, I’m still inclined to move forward with this process. Before I ask my questions, I wanted to provide context into why since everyone has their own reasoning and weighting of what’s important to them.

I’m in the US, I live in a blue state, and I’m an engineer (and as many engineers are: an extremely skeptical person). Like so many I’m extremely unnerved by the election results and fear that so much of the worst outcomes we were at risk of suffering through have not only been hastened but will be worsened in ways we can’t imagine. Inflation, climate change, eroding social safety net, collapsing health systems: I don’t see how things course correct in my lifetime.

I’m young enough to have an appetite for risk and a still burgeoning career in a specialized field, but old enough to know that the party ends at some point and I need to make choices for the best opportunity for the most stable future possible, whatever that may be. I have a decent retirement savings accrued and a substantial liquid savings. That said, the cynic in me has me convinced that the retirement savings won’t be worth anything that could be retired on by the time I could due to the degrading state of the world. My outlook on them is to make them work as well for me as possible while they have value and don’t count on their eventual liquidity.

My rationale for wanting to pursue the GV is that I think mobility will be a stronger currency than cash in my lifetime. I think the current instability of the world has the potential to make a great many people unexpected refugees, and that broader citizenship is likely to give you a greater chance at survival. I’m not doing this scheme with the intent of living in Portugal right away, during the process, or possibly ever. My spouse and I are more interested in The Netherlands in general, but their lack of a dual citizenship program made us favor aiming for EU citizenship instead.

Now that I’ve shared my societal doom and gloom, onto process doom and gloom.

I’ve on boarded with one of the big box firms and have paid for the legal engagement. I’ve discussed options, asked many questions (and still have many more), and am just now rolling up my sleeves with the attorney. As of right now, I’m finding myself very torn between the 500,000€ fund investment option and the 250,000/200,000€ cultural investment option for extremely different reasons. I easily have enough capital on hand for the cultural investment option and am willing to accept that it could mean a complete loss of that capital in the end. The capital required for the fund option is far more of a stretch for me, and while I’m willing to make some moves to make it happen, the exposure isn’t what scares me the most.

Regarding the fund investment:

  • I’ve settled on either putting everything or almost everything into either Optimize or IMGA. I took the time to read a book on private equity and will be meeting with fund managers to learn more, but I prefer the baked in diversified portfolio of those two funds and the open ended policy even at the cost of lower opportunity for gains. Said differently, I don’t have a lot to gamble with and this appears to be the most conservative and flexible approach.
  • My investment would need to be a split of funds from a self directed IRA and my new Portuguese bank account once it’s opened. I’ve read many accounts of using a self directed IRA including one where an applicant had to use two separate SDIRAs for separate source IRAs with different tax treatments, but I haven’t read any accounts of a split of savings and SDIRA.
  • I haven’t delved deep enough into this yet with the attorney and firm yet, but the complexity of the SDIRA really scares me. My understanding is the SDIRA has a checkbook US based IRA and Portugal based LDA, and that both must match my name on the records exactly for this to work. Additionally, a wrong move could result in this becoming a taxable event, like the Portugal based LDA sending the funds to my Portuguese bank account instead of the fund. It’s a lot of moving pieces with terrible consequences if a mistake is made. I’d be very interested to hear stories from those who funded their investment via SDIRA and their personal bank account.

Regarding the cultural investment:

  • There’s very little information on what’s even available to invest in, or at least not much published publicly.
  • I’m aware that it’s at best maybe a break-even move and at worst a total wash. What makes me more nervous is how untested it seems to be. I’ve found very few instances of people who have invested in this (@ohbee stands out as one) and very much want to learn more about what their journey has been like. To me this one feels like a higher risk of a bait and switch since, in the case of a donation, your leverage is gone once the money leaves your bank account. If the Portuguese government modeled this as a state backed escrow program I’d have felt a lot better since it would force the receiving side to have more skin in the game, but this option seems like way more “good faith” exposure than the fund side.
  • It’s unclear to me how the 5 year term even works for something like this. Say you invested in a documentary that wrapped up in 4 years and you broke even from the content being sold: would you have to find a second project to invest in? Or, like private funds, do they all have a 5 year minimum term? I’m also assuming a donation inherently satisfies the time requirement since it’s impossible to get back.

So there you have it: way too long a post that likely shares too much conviction and dread, seeking some blend of information and validation from a group of people who seem to have been largely harmed and spiteful of the process. I look forward to your feedback and appreciate you spending time replying to me.

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I won’t comment on all of your post except to say you’re clearly doing a lot of the necessary research thoroughly which will put you ahead of many GV applicants. Most people here would still say don’t do it no matter what your motivation given that you’re 8-10 years away from EU citizenship on current trajectories even if all goes according to plan. However, this isn’t what you asked.

To your questions about the fund investment… I’m not a US citizen so have no knowledge of this SDIRA account of which you speak but it sounds exactly the same as a UK SIPP (ie. an investment account in a special tax wrapper that can hold all sorts of assets that you buy and sell yourself with no tax liability until you extract the funds after retirement). I think the problem with your plan to split the €500k GV investment between regular cash and money held in this SDIRA that one of the documents you need to apply for the GV is a declaration from your Portuguese bank that you transferred €500,000 in cold hard cash to your bank account in Portugal and this was used to buy the qualifying fund(s). The share certificate(s) are then held by the Portuguese bank (ie your Portuguese bank is the custodian) and later in the process (for me it was at final approval) your Portuguese bank will need to make an additional declaration that you still hold the qualifying investment shares.

GV applicants have split their GV investments between, say, two qualifying funds in Portugal but both of the Portuguese bank certificates I’ve identified (certifying the transfer of €500,000 in cash to Portugal and certifying the investments are still there) are still required for your GV application and for final approval.

Therefore, I don’t think your plan to split the source of investments and custodian between your Portuguese bank and your SDIRA account in this way will work. It’s not just a matter of your name being on €500,000 of qualifying investments in Portugal funds.

I’m happy to be wrong about this if other forum members here have direct, personal, experience of your scenario and can attest that splitting the source of funds and the custodian between a Portuguese bank and a foreign pension account will be accepted by AIMA when it assesses both your initial application and again your documents for final approval.

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I am in the same stage and the same boat as you!

I did not think of or explore the idea of SDIRA but I did investigate the option of Multi-currency or foreign-currency accounts owned and operated in The States. Currently, Schwab, Everbank and a couple of others offer it. These accounts will be on US soil, can hold your funds in Euros, and can be used to make Foreign Investments.

My question to my lawyer was if I could use this account as custodian for my Portuguese investments instead of having to create a Portuguese bank account. The answer is no and was reasoned the same way as richn4’s response above. The Portuguese bank is to certify the transfer of funds and investments. Bummer!

As an aside, I’m open to DM and discussion!

Thanks for the reply and the compliment. To your point, I’m aware that it’s still a long road but I value mobility over timeliness so I have a high tolerance for pain here.

The SIPP sounds the same at face value: create an entity in your name to manage the funds to avoid tax exposure. If the hard requirement is a single source of funds then that more or less forces me into the cultural donation route because routing the tax advantaged contribution from the SDIRA into my bank account would make it taxable.

I was aware that it’s possible to split the investment side of it, but I have to admit I’m surprised that no option exists to split the source side, at least across a couple of accounts due to international tax treatments.

I’ll follow up with what I find out because I doubt I’m the only one in this boat. If I had the full 500k in the IRA I’d just do that but I don’t. I can make post-tax contributions to it, but I think that would further complicate things because I’m fairly certain that the regular IRA then has to bucket those funds separately and that would only add more risk and complexity to this process.

Also, I really need to find that post about the guy who set up two SDIRAs. I know I read it here and I regret not bookmarking it.

Also the cultural option is more of a donation, not an investment with returns

“more of” a toilet flush

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When we looked at it five years ago any investment through an IRA was ineligible because the investment was by the custodian. You had to do a taxable withdrawal from the IRA and invest that. Maybe things have changed or more sophisticated reasoning has developed.

I might want to suggest that…

You are taking a fairly pessimistic view of the world as a whole. This is clear. The US falling apart, savings not worth anything, etc etc. Yet, you seem to be making a fairly optimistic assumption that the EU itself will hold together, because you view the passport as mobility and are more interested in being somewhere else in the EU.

If you are fine with that assumption then ok, but I feel like I should at least point at it because it would suck for you to make this kind of investment, which seems substantial on your part, and end up with a Portuguese passport that… doesn’t result in what you wanted to have happen.

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Hi there - I’m basically in the same position as you and of a similar thought process, although I am single. Would love to know which lawyer you are going with. I’m in the process of speaking with a few over the coming weeks.

As for investment routes, I can do the cultural investment with cash as well. I saw options such as Opera houses even, which might make me a bit more comfortable than something like a film production project (though I still haven’t diligenced these options much).

The investment fund route is extremely risky for me, as I’d either sell my US real estate or pull equity out of it (basically eat any returns with interest).

But now I’m growing more concerned after hearing “toilet flush” in regards to cultural investment. I certainly understand there is a significant risk of losing the investment, but now I’d really love to understand any experiences out there. @ohbee Do I understand correctly that you are invested currently?

Maybe it depends on which cultural option you take, but mine was a donation to a museum. I would consider an artistic production project as a donation too because a random independent art project is unlikely to make any money.

Whereas an investment fund is at least designed to be an investment.

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I see - so you chose donation up front. Yes, I agree with you - the random independent art projects, like filming and such, concern me. However, seeing other options such as a cultural institutions and well-funded foundations gave me a bit more hope that maybe it wouldn’t be a total wash. I’m hoping the law firms I’m going to meet with may have more insight. I’ll certainly be cautious of what they advise though… I’m sure many might push poor “investments” to get the legal fees.

Which cultural institutions and/or foundations are promising a chance at getting your capital back? And how?

for example: what does an opera house do with your money that generates enough of a return that you get the money back?

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There are a couple foundations that are notably well-funded. Again, I haven’t been able to find more on their specific “agreements” with any GV “investors” so hoping law firms may have more local resources to enlighten me, as I’m certainly skeptical too. I have seen non-profits and charities manage their own investment pools to fund certain operations as well. No idea if that would be the scale of a Portuguese cultural foundation (not an opera house) or what the terms / laws around something like that could look like. But if that could afford them a better chance of returning initial investment in part or full, I will consider taking the hit on opportunity cost of deploying assets elsewhere and the greater risk.

One of the firms specifically listed two foundations as investment options. I have a meeting scheduled with them.

I am fine with that assumption and I understand I’m taking a risk that could amount to nothing. I feel enough personal confidence in my evaluation that I’m willing to stake significant capital on it and accept that I could be egregiously wrong.

I’m going down a similar path now. There are supposedly some artistic productions where there’s a contractual return from a media company: for example a documentary that has a buyer but is expected to secure their own funding. It seems these are exceedingly rare but the firm I’m working with is looking into it more since they’ve really only dealt with museums.

I’ve received confirmation that it’s possible to do with an IRA as long as you send your funds to a self directed IRA that has an LLC where you’re the signatory and you set up an LDA (Portuguese LLC) with the same name as the LLC (for example, Joe Schmoe Investments) on it which includes your name, and you move the money between those as the funding source. Where things fall apart is if you have two sources of funds that can’t mix due to tax treatment.

I’m six years into the GV process and I can’t warn people away from it more strongly. Nothing works as it’s supposed to and the costs are way higher than expected. If you want to live in the Netherlands, find a way to do that. I don’t understand why anyone would voluntarily go through the drama of Portugal if this isn’t where you plan to settle eventually. Just saying….

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The time you spend on researching about cultural programs can be more wisely utilised for researching a safe Fund. I believe that with all due diligence made, you will be able to avoid 50% lost of the fund (which is the same 250k of “toilet flush” if you want to choose cultural route). It is great that we have a member here who has gone thru the processs with cultural route and his warning is more valuable than any advice of lawyers or anything we could read online.

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Our original thinking was, this country is giving us a chance at a passport, why not contribute to its culture in a meaningful way.

Now that the country is doing its best to stymie ARI processes, I would’ve preferred to invest in something with the possibility of getting some money back.

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Same here. I appreciate Portugal for offering me this opportunity to have the passport. However, after being treated like trash, i do not trust any word from portuguese govt. I only consider their words when things are already delivered. At the same time, I have full respect to normal portuguese people. They have nothing to do with the politics. Instead of contributing to Portugal via its govt, I make my own direct contribution to the portuguese people. It is very common that a country A use its own tax not to help its own citizen but to send over to help country B. Citizens of country A are just baffled and wonder why their own govt does not help them when they need support and at the same time govt is busy taking care of something happening thousands of kilometers away. You can easily guess what country A country B are. I cannot write it explicitly here because my post will be hidden. Therefore we need some imagination here.

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