Ate Logo, Portugal: Why I'm cashing out of Optimize

About 4 months ago, I did a post about why I chose Optimize. How fast things change! Since I’m cashing out of my Optimize account and ending my GV process, I thought I would do a follow-up.

Under the new rules, Portugal is selling a vastly worse product for a lot more money. On balance, it did not seem worth it to me. I’m now starting a process in a different European country.

I’m not willing to commit the kind of money now required for the possibility of citizenship, if rules do not change again, after 15 years. I feel that I entered into a contract with a counterpart named Portugal. In the meantime, my counterpart decided he would no longer abide by the terms of our contract. I can now either sue him, accept the new terms or walk away. I chose the latter.

Given that I no longer trust my counterpart, I no longer have faith he will uphold his end of the bargain, even with the less advantageous terms. That is, I don’t know when he will invent additional new fees or, for instance, decide that I don’t qualify for citizenship after 15 years without becoming a fulltime resident of Portugal. The trust is broken.

What makes me particularly suspicious about my counterpart (Portugal) is he will not even reveal his understanding of the current terms. For example, it now seems GV applicants will have to renew a 3rd time and 4th time for something called a Permanent GV (which actually runs 5 years). It took me some effort for me to learn that this previously unnecessary Permanent GV carries a fee of 9,270 for 1 applicant, plus 2,500 legal fees. I’ve asked if I would need to continue to visit Portugal for 7 days/year during the 2 Permanent GV periods, and no one can answer that yet. I have learned from business that it’s never a good idea to make an agreement when the terms are not transparent to all parties.

In the end, I find the somewhat remote possibility of obtaining Portuguese citizenship after 15 years is just too expensive for the current price tag. The investment options for 500k range from so-so to poor. Earlier this year, I reached the conclusion that Optimize was my best option. I’m currently paying Optimize about 7,000 euros/year in fund expenses beyond what I could get for a similar fund that invests in the same securities in my own country (1.8% versus .8%). This is a large expense of the GV - and even so, Optimize is probably one of the very best options.

Excessive fees notwithstanding, European stocks have done really well this year, so I have capital gains. I will withdraw the funds after reaching 1 year so as to take those gains as long- rather than short-term. Even though Optimize imposes higher-than-ideal fees on GV applicants, it appears to be a professional, responsive company. I do not doubt that I can get my funds returned within a week.

Everyone’s circumstances are different. While it makes sense for me to cancel my application now that 5 years-to-citizenship is off the table, and skip my recently-scheduled biometrics appointment, others will see it differently. For example:

  • We all have different wealth levels.
  • Some are further along in the process and don’t want to walk away after years/funds already invested.
  • An applicant under 45 years old would be more patient about waiting for hypothetical EUR citizenship than someone over 65.
  • Someone who wants to live and work in Portugal now would likely go for the DV.
  • Some investors made savvy property investments that they wish to hold onto in any event.
  • Other investors are locked into fixed term investments that are difficult or impossible to unravel.
  • Some of us already have have serviceable passports for worldwide mobility - others don’t.
  • Countries that are now attracting attention like Hungary, Latvia and Bulgaria have shakier investment markets than Portugal, but offer much lower fees, shorter timelines and more responsive immigration offices.

Therefore, given different individual circumstances, I can’t conclude that no one in their right mind would now start a new Portugal GV application. It’s a very personal decision. However, I would guess that new applications will fall dramatically and that the undercapitalized Portuguese market will no longer benefit from the substantial influx of GV investment funds. Given the need to pull out if terms worsen further, now that many GV investors lack trust in the Portuguese Government, closed-end and fixed-term investment funds (and the high commissions they pay to advisors who loiter around chat groups) will likely disappear. Many investment advisors and immigration attorneys, who have their livelihoods wrapped up in the GV, will predictably argue the Portugal GV is still worth it - but they are now selling a Yaris rather than the previous Landcruiser - for a higher than ever price tag. Investors, especially new investors, have options.

In any event, good luck to everyone in this new era.

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Thanks for the follow up. I am incredibly close to pulling the trigger to get out as well. It went from, what seemed to me, the best deal out there to lighting money on fire for no reason for a program they don’t want to be competitive. I have been researching alternatives and nothing is as good as PT’s old program for my circumstances, but a lot feels better than what I will get currently. Best of luck to you.

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Sounds reasonable. Personally I would wait until the constitutional court decision is clear in case that provides some relief.

None of those lead to citizenship without living there right? Although I guess they may have lower taxes than Portugal so living there isn’t terribly costly for higher earners.

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Bulgaria does not have a residency requirement. In fact, one doesn’t even have to visit the 1 week/yr that Portugal requires.

If you want citizenship, Hungary and Latvia have residency requirements. To simply hold the Golden Visa, they do not. Honestly, unless you really believe in your heart that Portugal will grant citizenship after 15 years, these programs are similar to Portugal’s. Latvia has much lower investment requirement. Hungary has a flat tax of only 15% so it would be much cheaper to declare tax residency there than in Portugal - if Portugal eventually requires GV holders to become residents in order to qualify for citizenship.

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But Bulgaria requires you to give up your existing citizenship to naturalize yes? Bulgaria also already changed their investment citizenship rules once with no grandfathering (used to have an option to invest more for faster citizenship), so not necessarily more trustworthy than Portugal.

True, and Bulgaria has 10% I believe.

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Bulgaria requests that you surrender your previous citizenship within 3 years of acquiring Bulgarian citizenship, but there’s no follow-up. A bit of a jaywalking law.

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Yeah, this is going to be all over the map for everyone.

  • did you buy a property? one that you wanted to live in? are you going to take a bath selling it?
  • what’s the timeline on your investments? can you get out and when? can they be extended enough for you to reach PR or is that going to cause massive pain?
  • do you like Portugal as a place to be, aside from all the political BS?
  • did you get NHR in either form? or can you reasonably?
  • how far along are you to any of the goalposts? do you have a card in hand?
  • are you already living in Portugal? if so, did you burn your bridges back where you were, or do you even want to go back there?
  • do the costs of PR move the meter for you?
  • just how disgusted are you with the whole affair, versus the pain of dealing with addressing any/all of the above issues in order to walk away?

etc.

It might be interesting to collect people’s stories and see the collective of everyone’s different pain points and paths, but I’m not entirely sure what would come of it.

Congrats on coming to a conclusion in any event.

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Okay, so if you don’t, they have a ready made excuse to revoke your citizenship whenever public opinion changes, or if the EU pressures them? It wouldn’t even take a retroactive law, merely enforcement of the existing law with which you failed to comply…

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At this point, all of the programs probably have some gamble in them as nationalist passions and reactions to the waves of immigration rise everywhere. So…

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Some of the other factors that can make a significant difference in outlook are:

  • did you get migrated to D2 (much lower fees and 3 year card duration)
  • are you part of a family group, solo or couple ( what’s your friction on documents and renewals, if non-resident)
  • do you want future generations of your family to inherit your status
  • is having a schengen visa a significant advantage for you

For some having PR offers an adequate alternative, for a few rolling a D2 / ARI indefinitely is livable, and many more want only citizenship.

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I completely understand why you’re getting out early. The reasons you listed for others staying in also make sense. For most people further along than you, I do think it’s worth waiting to see what happens with the president first, and then the courts. And no one should underestimate the kind of problems they might run into later in places like Hungary or Bulgaria.

I’d also caution anyone treating these programs as if governments are counterparties in a normal commercial deal, in Portugal or anywhere else. They’re not. There’s almost no enforceable reciprocity, and regulatory risk is part of the package. Governments can and do change the rules whenever it suits them. That’s the same everywhere. A change of government or political mood is all it takes. Portugal’s GV had far less political protection than most of us assumed. The extent to which it has strong legal protection is something we are still waiting to learn. Politicians (more than courts) are always capable of self-sabotage. To be honest, governments everywhere suck. I’ve migrated twice before. Each time it was a bureaucratic circus, and those countries were in much better shape than Portugal.

I applied for GV with the expectation I could lose it all. If you can’t afford to lose your investment in Portugal and get nothing in return, or if you just can’t stomach that kind of uncertainty, then something like a D7 makes more sense. Portugal’s GV was always high risk, high reward. Hungary, Bulgaria, same story.

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Yes. If you want to imagine scenarios where it could go south, that’s a remote possibility. However, I’d prefer to take the chance you describe after getting EU citizenship through Bulgaria in 5 years than through Portugal in 15 years. The risk of me dying waiting for Portuguese citizenship is no doubt greater (depends on one’s age). In terms of Bulgaria, I’d be far more concerned about investing in a more poorly regulated market (than Portugal’s) than about Bulgaria rescinding someone’s citizenship years after granting it.

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All great points. Just keep in mind: if you want to live in Portugal, any EU passport will do. So you can get citizenship from another country, then move to Portugal as an EU national.

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Nicely balanced writeup, @GottaGetOut!

I hope you’ll share your experiences going through the Bulgarian program with the community. Maybe create a dedicated thread in the Residencies & citizenships category, and if it generates some interest I can create a dedicated Bulgaria category.

I started a company called Ate Logo Ventures (funny enough) and am making a small profit . The entire in/out BS is annoying and a time suck and really makes me wonder if it made any sense at all.

If you can figure out how to get one in some way that works for you :frowning:

Please report back if your estimated time of funds being returned works out. I have read that it’s not as easy as one thinks to get open-ended funds back but of course that was from a closed-end fund so it’s suspect.

I have not gone all in yet on GV, I’m at the point of investing - have NIF, etc - but want to wait and see how the President and maybe Constitutional Courts weigh in on the matter.

The permanent residency in 5 years is still viable and that’s not a bad thing but my top goal was the 5 year citizenship. Without it, I doubt I invest 500euro. My main interest was a 2 or so year head start before I can move. If the law passes without protecting people retroactively, there is zero chance I invest 500euro.

So, the odds are good I will have to got the D7 route in the future if I want to live in Portugal. I am currently looking at alternatives like Spain, Greece, Malta, and Latvia. None of them check all the boxes which makes the Portugal changes even more frustrating.

I’m happy to report back on that, but it won’t be till April (because I want to hold the fund for at least 12 months). I did call my Optimize advisor and discuss the withdrawal with him. He said there would be no problem, with no redemption fees or Portuguese taxes.

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Right, sorry, corrected.

Remember, regardless of what happens with the nationality law, GV PR is five years from first residence card, not five years from application. Yes, first residence cards are moving faster now than before, but you should add at least one year to your expected timeline – just this year, mine took 9+ months just between paying the DUC and receiving the card.

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