Does anyone here have experience with 3 Comma Capital and their Portugal Golden Income Fund? Deciding between this fund and the IMGA Ações Portugal fund (as a second fund, along with Optimize). Thanks.
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Going to throw this one out there and curious about responses…
I spoke to the folks at Optimize last week. When I mentioned to them that I was probably going to split my funds between them and likely one other place (specifically open ended only), the response was, “Well, all of the funds essentially invest in the same 16 allowed (for the golden visa) funds so you’re really not diversifying if you split.”
Is there any validity to this?
I understand if you do one open ended and then plan for PE or VC you would be more significantly diversified. But if you focus only on open ended funds, are they really all so similar that splitting is only worthwhile if you’re concerned that one investment entity might fold?
Appreciate any insight.
I will be inquiring about this with the next group of folks I chat with.
Agreed that Optimize is mostly Portuguese equities (and there really are less than 20 large-cap equities in Portugal to invest in), so funds like IMGA and Optimize are largely investing in the same constrained equity pool. Which makes the 3CC fund interesting counter to that because their 60-70% required Portuguese investment is largely large corporate bonds, not equities, with the other ~30% in international ETFs and bitcoin. which makes me think that 3CC is a nice balance with Optimize (vs IMGA has a lot of overlap with Optimize). But 3CC is a new fund (only around since mid-2024, though the head person at 3CC is the former head of global investment at IMGA).
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Does anyone have any information about how one could go about finding a buyer for a PT fund investment if the investor was going to withdraw from the GV program?
Have you checked with the fund manager? I couple of years ago, the manager of my fund sent an email to the participants about availability of shares due to someone wanting to exit the fund. Not sure how it ended up, and there were no further communications from the fund manager.
I would suggest this to be a difficult task aside from the assistance of the fund manager in question, because you have to somehow find someone else who is willing to invest in that fund. If the fund really wants to help, they could just transfer your shares to an incoming customer - but that isn’t really in the interest of a growing fund, and a mature/closed fund is unlikely to have anyone interested… and may not want to offer the shares to existing investors, since it begs the question “why”.
It might be interesting if @tkrunning were to offer a thread that served as a marketplace for shares from people who want out, simply as an indicator of interest. That said, it’s complicated - ok, so I want out, I sell 350k of shares, but I have to take a discount and sell them for 280k to a new person. Does that mean that for visa purposes is it only a 280k investment, or does it mean that it’s a 350k investment just that the seller is subsidizing the buyer? I think it might also be viewed badly by fund managers themselves, because what it is is the beginnings of a market bid/ask for the fund shares based on what real people are valuing the fund at versus whatever their accountants are marking the fund to, and again that’s not a statistic some PE funds will want published.
This is all just idle spitballing.
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This is an idea which might have merit, yet still recognizing the potential obstacles as @jb4422 has noted.
I suspect that another existing investor with money on the sidelines could be tempted to buy shares for a sufficient discount. It’s like any other investment. If another investor in my fund offered their shares at a 50% discount, I’d consider it.
However, it would have to be a pretty healthy discount. I’m nowhere near convinced that I’ll even get my original capital back, never mind any investment gains, even ignoring all of the onerous taxes I’m paying on profits that the fund managers will ultimately keep for themselves.
It depends how the fund is set-up I believe. Ours was set up with the potential need to extend the fund term for some, but not all, investors in mind, for those who were delayed in receiving their citizenship. It’s covered in the Management Regulations.
All real estate related funds no longer qualify as an investment for new applicants after the rules changed - they’re fine for those who invested prior to the change. I agree they absolutely missed a trick in not being more thoughtful with the drafting of the changes - they could have continued to allow funds that develop property - it’s a huge wasted source of potential funding for desperately needed housing. However, the reason they made this change was because after they banned direct real estate investments, they were concerned that fund structures would be used to hold residential real estate on behalf of investors. For example, you could have seen structures where investors invest in a fund that owns a residential development, they get the use of one of the apartments during the term of the fund, and at the end they get an apartment rather than their money back.
Thank you for your thoughts. I’m sure it will depend on the fund manager and what the fund agreement allows. I would expect to sell at a discount. I suppose I might be able to use the fund ownership as loan collateral. I’ll likely maintain it in the fund until my 5 years are up and have satisfied the GV requirement and then decide what is possible next.
(It has been pure bait and switch from beginning to end. I never intended to make an 8 year no interest loan in exchange for nothing. )
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Hi all, So many fund options for PGV. What funds did you choose and why?
Open ended growth funds seem easy (especially if they change the time to citizenship from 5 to 10 years) because you never have to choose a new fund, and defer taxes. However, the PT stock market doesn’t do too well over time. I was hoping folks might let me know your opinion on a few funds we have narrowed it down to. We have narrowed to Oxy Capital’s Mercurio II (opening soon), 3 Comma’s Golden Income, and Panorama fund, as a possible trio of diversified funds to invest into. As the Pt stock market doesn’t seem reliably strong, we thought it could be best to focus on PE and bonds. It’s hard to get unbiased advice, unless I guess we go with a fiduciary who wants to charge 1% a year.
Hi Kristina, where did you hear they may change the time to 10 years? Cheers!
Yes, there are 23 references to it on these forums, if you use the search function
Newbie here.
Thanks
I met with 3CC and really liked them for the reason that you articulated. The manager has excellent experience and I like that they focus on bonds and have some non-Portuguese equities as well as gold and bitcoin to round things out. I too am planning to split between them and Optimize.
Someone suggested to me that because they hold Portuguese bonds instead of equities, that it was grey in terms of GV eligibility, but my attorney has assured me that they are eligible. Has anyone heard anything about their GV eligibility from their attorney?
I also just met with 3CC and the principal joined the call as well. I really liked both of them and am pretty sure I’ve decided to invest fully with them. I’m asking my lawyer to speak with them to ensure everything is in order, but they mentioned they’ve had over 70 Golden Visa investors in this fund since its inception, all processed without any issues.
One of the reasons I’m hesitant to split the investment between 3CC and another open-ended, equity-based fund is due to the limited nature of the PSI20. The index only includes about 16 companies, and some individual stocks make up a very large percentage of the total. For example, EDP (Energias de Portugal), a utility company, and one of the largest components of the index, often representing 10–15% of the total weight. That level of concentration means you’re disproportionately exposed to the performance of just one or two companies, which undermines the diversification benefit you’d typically expect from an equity fund. So I’m not convinced the alternative is as compelling as it initially appeared.
They said that they have had no information of any of them ever getting negative feedback so far.