The politics of immigration to Portugal

The policy of allowing people to enter on a tourist visa and then apply for residency seems good

Plenty of countries need a visa to come to Portugal to begin with. If you make that easier, you get more immigrants

Immigrants are good for the economy and demographics and all sorts of stuff

Don’t blame the problems Portugal is facing with immigration (largely, AIMA being overwhelmed) on the good parts of the policy, blame them on the idiots running AIMA and the Portuguese government more generally.

It’s a shame to see anti immigration talking points even here. We need to be a coordinated group fighting for immigrant rights, we’ve generally got more resources and connections even if there are fewer of us

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Unfettered, indiscriminate, untargeted, mass immigration mandated by soft headed leftist elites living in gated communities and without taking your public along for the ride is NOT good for the economy and demographics and all sorts of stuff…

And it contributes to the madness and chaos that we’re having in the Western world today - overtaxed cities trying valiantly to provide infrastructure, human services (hospitals & schools) and law & order.

Targeted immigration means not having people come to open another small unviable grocery shop or be another unneeded tuk-tuk driver, but to actually man the farms where the produce badly needs to be harvested or another main economy driver - the building industry, needs ongoing muscle.

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This is more about racism and politics. Not at all about numbers or how many new Portuguese nationals are being added to the demographics. In terms of sheer numbers, the country, in any event, needs literally all of the people coming in through whatever means. All of them, except, of course, criminals. They add value to the economy and enrich the country with new cultural perspectives, enrich tourist experience, add to cuisines etc.

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Not sure everyone will agree with this sentiment. Not everyone adds value to an economy and there is a good argument that many cultures in Europe are being diluted and immigrants are not assimilating. Germany opened its borders and are now seeing the consequences. Rather, countries need the right people.

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I hate to get involved in such an emotive discussion that is very personal to some people but statements like this can be so easily countered by the evidence of anyone’s own eyes on the streets around Martin Moniz square that are packed during a normal working day with a large volume of working age men doing and contributing nothing when this is the time they should be in gainful employment if the jobs in farming or construction (as someone posted above) exist for them. It’s sights like this that has resulted in the backlash against such mass immigration ā€œthrough whatever meansā€. Portugal emphatically does not ā€œliterally needā€ them. Or at least, Portugal does not know what to do with them now they are here and they do not seem in a hurry to find out themselves. Okay, now I’ve highlighted the evidence of my own eyes, I’ll sit back for my lashing.

Judging by all the kebab houses in this area, you may have a point that they add to Lisbon’s cuisines though. Useful at 3am.

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Do you think immigrants are stupid or something?

Nobody is going to work as a tuktuk driver if they are actually unnecessary (if they don’t get work they don’t get paid)

People don’t open grocery stores they don’t think they can be profitable with

The infrastructure problems are something you’d have either way.

Everything would be perfectly fine if Portugal let people build housing where people want to live, but that’s nearly impossible. So housing gets crazy expensive obviously and then people look for a scapegoat rather than looking at their laws and what they’re doing to themselves

Edit: Also, really rich to have someone arguing that unskilled immigrants aren’t good with an ā€œI stand with Ukraineā€ flair.

I stand with Ukraine, unless Ukrainians fleeing a war zone want to open a shop or drive an Uber. Then they can get the hell out

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can be so easily countered by the evidence of anyone’s own eyes on the streets around Martin Moniz square that are packed during a normal working day with a large volume of working age men doing and contributing nothing

And that point can be easily countered by taking a look at any of the large scale farming operations in the Alentejo. For every single man sitting around in Martim Moniz there are atleast 100 if not 1000 men who are toiling hard in the scorching sun hoping they can eventually get a permit and offer a better life to their families back home.

What you see in Martim Moniz is not representative of the actual workforce that is working hard day in and day out, whether in construction or berry picking or other industries with almost no options or safety net.

It is easy to use those 50-100 people sitting around there to make an example out of the 10s of thousands who are actually working hard and contributing to the economy. I find it beneath the level of discourse at this forum to say one thing without saying the other. Sure the immigrants in Martim Moniz could get jobs like those other immigrants driving ubers, delivering glovos, working in construction or agriculture. It’s disingenuous to say one without the other.

Portugal doesn’t literally need anything of course. It can still return to the dilapidated days of 2011. If that’s what the public wants, so be it. But it’s hard to watch everyone malign hard working migrants for all the evils of society.

Many came in, without being accounted for. Schools, hospitals, and welfare systems cannot keep up. However, most of these people are actually working and paying taxes and social security. So it would be the state’s responsibility to serve them and not scapegoat them. Seems like they drew the short straw on both counts.

For more info, watch this documentary about modern slavery in Portugal:

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There is a problem with the grocery stores. And that is, they are setup as pretty much shell companies. A lot of these grocery stores have 100s of employees on payroll. Where are they?

They’re all working illegally in France/Germany/etc. They actually do pay taxes and social security in Portugal. But they aren’t here. After 5 years they apply for citizenship and of course then legally register to work in France/Germany wherever.

This scam has been going on for a long time. I can tell you that my neighborhood grocer was missing for the last year with another guy in his place. The moment AD and Chega came to power he reappeared. I asked him where he was and he said he was out of the country for a while. But now due to checks being stepped up, I suppose he decided it’s better to spend his time in PT and then eventually get citizenship here the regular way.

These types of scams are happening all over the place. A lot of the glovo and uber eats guys are also using ID cards from their friends, etc. to do deliveries because they are undocumented. Here’s a trick to know who has documents and who does not - just look at whether they have a scooter/car or are riding a bicycle. Usually undocumented people who are waiting for permits are on the bicycles.

Again, all these people are working hard. Day in and day out, often for 12+ hours a day. They’re not just chilling and mooching off benefits as some would like you to believe.

Of course, there is a problem of balance and having too many people and if they bring their families how will schools function, how will hospitals function, etc. but we can have reasonable discussions about those problems without painting these people as some horrendous criminals. That’s not needed.

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Have you considered that those people might be on their days off?

That they might work nights?

That they might be stuck in the same bureaucratic hell you are, without the hundreds of thousands of euros you have to fall back on?

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In all honesty, one of the major appeals of Portugal at the time of our GV application was its relative LACK of immigration, particularly from non-Western countries, maintaining something like a coherent national identity, high level of safety and a high-trust society.

Native Portuguese people may resent Golden Visa holders or Americans for pricing them out, and that’s fair, even if we are few in number, largely lawful, and culturally assimilated.
However, there is deep, unspoken resentment toward the mass influx of migrants that are visibly and rapidly transforming Lisbon, Porto, and beyond.

Social services slammed, neighborhoods destroyed, culture decaying, crime up and trust down. And for what? A fake GDP boost? A cheap labor pool? Culture, safety, and national identity are being sacrificed at the altar of cheap ideology and cheaper wages.

Moreover, a bunch of solo male migrants do not solve a demographics crisis, they exacerbate them. Mass migration does not solve an inequality crisis, it concentrates profits in the hands of greedy business owners refusing to pay natives what they deserve and exploiting workers in what even the demographic arsonists describe as effectively slave labor conditions. So compassionate and humane!

There’s nothing progressive about dissolving a culture from the outside in while calling it compassion. That’s not humanitarianism. It’s colonization sold as virtue, and the people paying the price are the ones who built something worth preserving in the first place.

ā€œEveryone winsā€ from mass immigration - spoken like the kind of person who treats a nation like a spreadsheet and culture like a restaurant menu.

Bluntly, I did not move to Portugal to live in another flattened out globalized s***hole with ā€˜enriched’ cuisine. I moved to Portugal to live in Portugal.

More on topic, the observation that the less is solved immigration-wise, the more Chega benefits, is astute, and my hopes are on the resentment coming from both left and right failing to cohere on a general target, the realities of politics and posturing, will be what saves us, at least for now. I’m honestly skeptical Chega will actually ā€˜solve’ the immigration crisis themselves, as most right-wing populist parties in Europe have, despite their rhetoric, maintained mass immigration policies that benefit their wealthy elite donor class. Capitalism is pro-open borders, after all.

A sensible policy would close the open door that things like overstaying a tourist visa provides, aggressively prosecute the fraud that allows abuse like the disgusting ā€˜gift shops’ littering cities now, maintaining the sunset on GV through property investment, while protecting the rights of investors and philanthropists that have helped improve social services, industry and middle class jobs for Portugal. Unfortunately it’s government we are talking about, so what results from this god only knows…

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When I substitute France/Germany by Luxembourg/Swenden/Denmark/Netherland and also substitute Portugal by Poland/Czech republic/Hungary/Spain/Slovakia/Bulgary/Rumania, your sentence does not change its meaning. :sweat_smile: Pure magic!

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Cultures in Europe are being diluted and immigrants don’t always assimilate. What part of that observation is racist?

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This is directly from the concept of Aryan racial purity.

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If native Portuguese make up a smaller percentage due to uncontrolled immigration, then yes, their culture is being diluted, not sure how you jumped to Aryan race ideology. That’s a huge leap. Culture is worth protecting. I’m sure you feel strongly about your culture / values / beliefs and think them worth protecting.

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Well, this thread went to hell in a hand basket quickly :slight_smile:

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Not unexpectedly though, as this forum reflects the general discourse in a microcosm. Anyone daring to voice a certain opinion calling out a certain problem as it is, is met with insults from ā€˜morally superior’ individuals who prefer to win arguments by shutting down and ā€˜cancelling’ their opponents instead of conducting a civilized discussion (probably because they both are unable to conduct such a discussion, and they are scared of losing it anyway).

I recommend everyone refrain from insults and baseless referrals to some extreme ideologies, and come back to the actual topic of the thread (if you have something useful to add, that is).
Also some posts should be removed either by authors or, failing that, by the moderator.

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The stench in here is really quite sickening. Talking about ā€œnon-westernā€ countries… ā€œdissolving a culture from the outsideā€. :face_vomiting::face_vomiting::face_vomiting: Are y’all aware of Portugal’s Moorish history? Where do you think the azulejos that Portugal is so famous for came from? Or the history of the word ā€œalgarveā€? Give me a break. Your statements are too easy to counter if you know just a little bit of history. I cannot take you seriously, and I am starting to wonder if some of you are AI robots meant to regurgitate ā€œGreat Replacementā€ nonsense. Is not culture alive and evolving? I think, we should respect and remember traditions, yes, but also engage. Is difference really so threatening to you? One of the things I find most exciting about modern Portugal is its unique diversity, confluence of cultures, and relative friendliness towards the outsider. Not to downplay the real challenges of integration (and putting aside entirely the scars of colonial history), but I hope Portugal never loses this welcoming spirit.

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LOL Maybe we do need that Portuguese civics test for citizenship after all.

Invoking Portugal’s Moorish past to justify mass migration today isn’t clever, it’s grotesque. What a slap in the face to anyone who actually lives here, loves this country and its people, or consider themselves Portuguese.

Yes, the Moors occupied the land for 400 years.
Yes, some visual and linguistic remnants remain.
But the defining story of Portugal is the rejection of that occupation.

  • The literal origin story of the Portuguese nation was a centuries-long war to end foreign Moorish rule, not embrace it.
  • The Reconquista wasn’t a multicultural celebration. It was a brutal, sustained campaign to restore sovereignty and identity. That’s not opinion, it’s foundational history.

Centuries of blood and sacrifice to reclaim the land, reforge culture, and survive as a people.
The Portuguese didn’t ā€œengageā€ with invaders.
They resisted them.

To point at azulejos and claim that’s proof Portugal should now absorb anything and everything, without limit or question, isn’t historical nuance.
It’s an insult to every peasant, soldier, and king who risked annihilation to ensure there would be a Portugal at all.

According to people like you, preserving cultural identity is Nazism, is ā€œgenocide,ā€
but 400 years of occupation and religious suppression was just friendly multiculturalism?

This is the level of historical illiteracy we’re dealing with.

Culture evolves through continuity, not replacement. The fact that you need this explained to you makes me feel like maybe Chega aren’t so off base after all lol…

Last point and then I promise to stop replying and let this thread return to its purpose but honestly, it’s so indicative of the lack of ability to respond with substance, that the only point you can actually respond to is the term ā€œnon-Western.ā€

Newsflash, it’s not a slur. It’s a geographic and cultural distinction. If I wanted to live in Asia or the Middle East, I’d move there.

Do the Chinese need to justify not wanting Shanghai to become Los Angeles?
Or is self-preservation only controversial when Europeans do it?

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