The politics of immigration to Portugal

Love that the bigots will simply ignore a well sourced comment I spend time on in favor of ranting about how they hate kebab

You cannot educate people that think data is made up.

No, @tommigun , linking sources proving someone wrong isn’t trying to cancel someone. It’s trying to correct misinformation you are falling for.

I’m also trying to shame people for either being a useful idiot for bigots or just being bigoted themselves, because shame is a good social motivator. It used to be that people were embarrassed when they said something stupid in public and then learned not to do that.

This is extremely shameful for a forum for immigrants to be hosting and repeating xenophobic nonsense

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Portugal deported only 200 immigrants between Jan and Mar 2025. I wonder how many immigrants entered the country during these three month. Maybe 20k-50k?
Not sure how long it’s gonna take them to deport 100k of immigrants. Maybe 100 years?:joy:

Hey @garrett, I know you are an overall reasonable guy, so I hope you realize yourself that you (for whatever personal reason) attack and insult anyone who dares to mention that ‘immigration may have some downsides’?
It’s all good and fair you citing sources, but calling people names and spraying insults to ‘shame’ your opponents (not me though luckily :)) cannot be part of a proper and civilized debate, don’t you think?
Would you like others to start shaming you all of a sudden for being unprovokedly rude and obnoxious? Hope not.
So let’s come back to our senses and return to a level headed discussion on the subject that concerns all of us here GVers and associates, without climbing down to the level of a useless gang fight.

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I split this discussion from from the original thread. And if you want to continue this discussion at all, please follow @tommigun’s advice above. If you can’t manage that I’ll lock it down.

If you want to turn a blind eye to xenophobic fearmongering, of the exact type that people always spout when there are immigrants, you are allowed to do that. But I won’t.

Here are some examples of xenophobic fearmongering through history that hopefully let you all see you’re falling for the same old bigotry used against a new target.

The Stranger at Our Gate by Frank Beard - letting in these poor, diseased, anarchic people will ruin America!

“THIS IS NOT A DUMPING GROUND”, Fiery Cross - Could be posted on facebook and do numbers with modern day xenophobes because it’s exactly the same argument wrt e.g. syrian/ukrainian refugees or south asian immigrants in Portugal.

The High Tide of Immigration - A National Menace - essentially what many of you are afraid of. While America’s institutions are in trouble now, it’s certainly not because of immigrants undermining them. Natural born Americans are plenty dangerous there.

The Mortar of Assimilation - cartoon that’s arguing some people just aren’t built for equal rights and would ruin the culture. Where have we heard that one?

The Most Recently Discovered Wild Beast (Anti-Irish) - I’ll quote the article in case you don’t want to click through

Native-born Americans criticized Irish immigrants for their poverty and manners, their supposed laziness and lack of discipline, their public drinking style, their catholic religion, and their capacity for criminality and collective violence. in both words and pictures, critics of the Irish measured character by perceived physical appearance.

Sound familiar?

Irish and Chinese immigrants consuming Uncle Sam

Exactly the fear people spread about “muslimization” or whatever of europe, or of south asian immigrants overwhelming Portugal, etc.

“We’re letting in anarchists and socialists with open borders!” - exact same fears are spread today

“Britain is dumping their impoverished Irish on the US!”

The Unrestricted Dumping Ground - a boat load of (suspiciously dark skinned) italian immigrants being dumped “direct from the slums of europe” onto American docks. You could change a handful of words and replace Uncle Sam with whatever the European/Portuguese personification is and it matches Chega’s rhetoric directly.

Kultur-Terror - Norwegian Nazi propaganda, I’ll copy the explanation because it’s better than what I could write

The monster destroying a European city in this cartoon is made out of symbols of America as interpreted through the prism of Nazism. The word Seelenlosigkeit, or “soullessness,” was a German word that described an affliction that the Nazis attributed to America as a consequence of its “degeneration” and “cultural malaise.” This cartoon was made as a Nazi propaganda poster.

At the bottom, amid the ruins of European civilization, a man holds a sign that says, “The USA shall save European culture from destruction.” Next to it, the text reads: “With what right?”

The Anti-Irish stereotypes are well worth reading up on, because again you can swap in Arab/Islamic/Indian for Irish and it’s a near perfect fit for modern propaganda. Don’t fall for it again

Benjamin Franklin himself decried German immigration to Pennsylvania!

Franklin was alarmed by the influx of German immigrants to Pennsylvania. The German immigrants were lacking in a liberal political tradition, the English language, and Anglo-American culture. In Paragraph 23 of the essay, Franklin wrote "why should the Palatine boors be suffered to swarm into our settlements, and by herding together establish their languages and manners to the exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our language or customs, any more than they can acquire our complexion?

He was worried that they would not adapt to the local culture. Imagine PA without german influence, or America as a whole! Insane.

Page 9 of this PDF goes over anti-immigration attitudes in the mid 1800s -

The invasion by this so-called immigrant “rabble” in the 1840s and 1850s inflamed the prejudices of American “nativists.” They feared that these foreign hordes would outbreed, outvote, and overwhelm the old “native” stock

Literally Goebbels gave a speech which is emblematic of Nazi antisemitic propaganda -

Richard Wagner once called the Jews the “plastic demon of decomposition” and Theodor Mommsen meant the same when he saw them as the “ferment of decomposition.” In contrast, the Aryan sees himself as a creative creature. There may be a certain tragedy inherent in the nature of the Jews, but is it our fault that this race works destructively among the peoples and is a constant danger to their domestic and international security?

The fundamental differences between the two races were responsible for the repeated explosions during the November years [1918-1933]. As long as the Jews remain anonymous, they are secure. The moment they lose their anonymity, the racial problem became acute and required a suitable solution. We certainly do not hold the Jews solely to blame for the German spiritual and economic catastrophe. We all know the other causes that led to the decline of our people. However, we have the courage to recognize their role in the process and to name them by name.

And a bonus, he complains about (heavily paraphrasing here) “Jews trying to cancel us”

It was difficult for a time to persuade the people of this, for public opinion was entirely in Jewish hands.

I could go on but if the above doesn’t show you you’re parroting xenophobic ideas that have always been wrong and are wrong today, you’re beyond my help

And, to be very clear - you can criticize cities being dirty, poor policing, poorly maintained infrastructure, and any number of other things. But notably, those are not caused by immigrants!

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This is up there with Hippo’s Christmas poem :sparkling_heart:

One could argue that PS deliberately let in a huge number of immigrants, because statistically speaking, new immigrants are overwhelmingly more likely to vote for the left. So if you increase the number of voters by 10% with new immigrants, you could hope to hold on to power forever. In this sense, you can dilute the votes.

PS (and later PSD, after winning the 2024 election) also basically gave up on enforcing the laws:

  • If 100 people signed fictitious employment contracts with a tiny souvenir shop, and used these contracts to apply for residency, then this is not that hard to catch or prosecute—the shop doesn’t generate enough cash flow to pay minimum wages to 100 people, so money laundering is done to cover the shortfall. Prosecute the shopkeeper and the 100 immigrants for immigration fraud, and deport all of them. The same goes for hundreds of people “living” at the same address. SEF (and AIMA) were not reviewing the substance of these fictitious contracts until very recently—they just rubber stamped whatever applications that came to their desks (after sitting in the drawer for 2 years).
  • Yes it was a disgrace that the Ukrainian immigrant who refused to board his deportation flight got beaten up and killed by SEF. But did Portugal really need to dismantle SEF, causing its most qualified desk job workers (people who review applications, IT people, etc.) to leave? Perhaps another political power grab by PS to get rid of the career SEF people, in favor of political appointees who would do whatever PS says and make it even easier for immigrants to get in?
  • As a result, deportation numbers out of Portugal were at historical low during the past few years. Let’s face it, foreigners did not all the sudden stop overstaying or committing crimes. The government just acquiesced.

The Portuguese voters should also ask themselves why their politicians didn’t adopt smarter policies:

  • Recall that the head of SEF resigned when PS first opened the door for uncontrolled immigration, allowing people to arrive on tourist visas and then “regularise” on Portuguese soil. So people with foresight knew the train wreck was coming.
  • If the Portuguese prefer a more homogeneous society, just do it through stricter immigration policies. No one forces you to take in immigrants. For example, Japan and South Korea both have very low birth rates, but people would rather have an aging society (and pay for it) than suffer mass immigration. Or, do what Singapore does and pay “native” women with university degrees a stipend to have a second or third kid, so that young families have less incentive to emigrate.
  • Whatever number of immigrants Portugal decides to take in, be it large or small or tiny, there is no shame in selecting those who will contribute the most to Portugal’s productivity and tax base. No one forced Portugal to hand out MI residencies freely to minimum wage workers in the cities, when the “labor shortage” could have been solved using targeted immigration pathways for agri workers, electricians, plumbers, etc.

No coherent policies. Little enforcement of existing laws. So the “nationalists” on the right are having a field day.

If an immigrant did everything legally to get into Portugal (no fictitious contract), works a full-time job, and commits no crime, then a cultural/racial purist who feels his “culture” has been diluted will just have to suck it up or go elsewhere. Eastern European countries such as Poland and Hungary are still very white.

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Guys, we are all ourselves immigrants, or aspiring immigrants. If we’re fighting amongst ourselves about which immigrants are the “good” and “bad” ones, or “right” and “wrong” ones, then we’ve already lost.

Yes, statistics suggest PT needs to slow its rate of intake of new people, but it allowed in a bunch of people and now it needs to honor its promises. Just like it needs to honor its promises to us.

We should not be arguing about western versus non-western, Muslim versus Christian, whatever. Whether these people came seeking a better life or invested for an ARI, we are not so different from them in that we all want to be Portuguese.

Repeating Chega talking points about some immigrants being “bad” is not helpful to us, considering we’ve already seen the government is inclined to paint us all with the same brush and not carve out any ARI specific previsions.

PT does need to solve some of its immigration problems but many of them are of its own making. And we should have sympathy for everyone who is here legally.

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To @portugal_traveler who joined this forum only yesterday just to partake in this racially charged discussion: what makes you think the Portuguese prefer you, a white American, to a well-educated Angolan who can have an intelligent conversation with them in fluent Portuguese? Just because you are white? (I don’t know you—maybe you are catholic as well, and feel that wins you additional superiority points.)

Chega’s strongholds are (surprise!) in the Algarve. See election map here. Home to British/American retirees who brag on youtube that they can get by without speaking a single word of Portuguese, and shirtless tourists.

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If you’re curious where the 700,000 Portuguese nationality are actually from:

  • 40% people of Portuguese descent
  • 30% Sephardic descent
  • 30% actual immigrants

“ What we know is that, of these 700,000 pending processes, around 30% are Sephardic and around 30% are for the naturalization” of immigrants, said the union leader, explaining that the majority of the remaining requests are from people of Portuguese descent who want to see their ancestral nationality recognized.”

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I can see you feel strongly about this and that is to be applauded. What isn’t though is calling people a racist or a bigot because they have a different viewpoint. There are positives and negatives to immigration. Whether it be a war refugee from Ukraine, a legal immigrant from India trying to better his life, a wealthy retired Brit, or an illegal immigrant who takes advantage of their host country and doesn’t contribute. The world isn’t black and white. There are many shades of grey. I have no problem with immigration at all, provided the numbers are controlled as to not overwhelm the system or to make the locals feel like strangers in their own country and that they make an effort to adopt the local culture rather than forming a parallel society. Again, I fail to see how any of the above is racist or bigoted.

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I had to take a break from writing here because @portugal_traveler’s post reeks of American racial ideology. So you want some pure white fantasy land to move to? Well guess what, Portugal wasn’t that already for 500 years - at the very least. Portugal has been a global empire in the past and so it will never be whatever you described in your post. The people here are mixed, many people have a black grandfather or an Indian grandmother or some other racial mix in their family. Newsflash, even the far right Rita Matias who talks about “remigration” has a grandmother from Goa, India. Is she going to deport herself to India as well on this basis?

As a brown person I find your posts quite offensive. First of all, because your post somehow implies that all brown people are criminals and are here to somehow dilute the culture of Portugal. I have yet to hear a single immigrant say that they are here to do such a thing. Most are hardworking people who are just looking for a better life for themselves. Yes, the MI open door policy brought in too many people. But that’s a question of policy and has nothing to do with cultural dilution etc. Furthermore, most of these people will move on to other European countries for better wages and lifestyle. They won’t even stick around. So you’re not happy when people use Portugal as a gateway to Europe, you’re not happy when they stay here to ‘dilute’ the culture because they don’t want to integrate (in your opinion). You’re just not happy because they have more melanin and a different religion. If that’s what it is, then just say it. We won’t use the R word to describe you because apparently we’ve been forbidden from that. But don’t hide behind all this complex rhetoric. If you want a white and catholic Portugal, you are allowed to want that. But you’re certainly not going to get it. Get real.

Then you describe souvenir shops as “disgusting”. Like what? Yeah it’s not the entrepreneurship you want or need and we can debate the economic merits of such an enterprise. But dehumanizing a place because the owners might be Bangladeshi is a bit much. I bet you would describe a white Portuguese owned souvenir shop as “cute” and not “disgusting”.

Furthermore, it’s more than a little hypocritical for a country like Portugal to embrace such a rhetoric given their blatant colonial past. Infact, the fact that you are equating immigration today to colonization in the past shows your lack of sensitivity and your lack of empathy towards people of color.

That you are making this a question of self preservation is beyond hyperbole. You’re a person with a solution looking for a problem. Go ahead, be my guest.

For me:
Open door immigration? No.
Better enforcement of immigration laws? Yes.
Racism and Bigotry? BIG NO.
Portugal being some all-white fantasyland? Lol, that ship sailed long ago and ironically it was the Portuguese who were the captains.

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Is the R word for rant ?

Another lame attempt to discredit arguments with distraction.

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You get called a bigot when you repeat the Nazi arguments that a group of people are “diluting” a culture

Or when you ignore the data that shows generally immigrants are integrating - because it’s inconvenient to your argument

Or when you say Germany is"facing the consequences" of immigration without being specific about what that means, especially when you’re shown their economy is doing better with immigration than it would without. Extremely common dog whistle

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I’m glad you’re at least brave enough to say directly that you’re a racist. That should at least get you banned so we don’t have to listen to your chatgpt bigotry

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Sorry, I should have copy and pasted a bunch of meaningless ‘studies’ and totally irrelevant articles from 200 years ago instead.

You think of yourself as so brilliant, next time try engaging with my arguments instead of trying to get me censored and calling me names.

Again, if you love Portugal so much, presumably that’s why you’re moving here, why are you so passionate about changing it?

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But they definitely prefer either of us to a migrant on a motor bike watching porn on his phone while waiting for his next UberEats delivery, who doesn’t learn the language, respect the customs, or even pretend to integrate.

Wow. Your descriptions of brown people are just next level disrespectful. The way you paint migrants is just messed up. I’d be surprised if you weren’t a right wing bot at this point.

I will say that you are a racist bot at this point because you paint every white person as gods gift to the planet and every immigrant, whether black (Angolan) or brown (the uber eats guys or the souvenir store owners) as some sort of problem (porn watching, disgusting store, criminals, low trust people, etc.).

I don’t think Portuguese people prefer your presence necessarily. You might be surprised.

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lol what did I even say negative about Angolans? @yzwang brought them up, was the one trying to play a rhetorical s***-test by asking me who I think the Portuguese would prefer to have in their country. I don’t really care if there’s some Angolans in Portugal, it’s fine, but if I wanted to live in a majority Angolan country, guess where I’d move?

Again, no substance to your response. Accusations of bigotry. Yawn. I can look out my window right now and see five delivery drivers matching my exact description. You yourself said unchecked mass migration is bad. I’m not allowed to illustrate the point?