Anyone who can mobilize 500k in cash is doing quite well.
👋 What country are you from that participated in the Golden Visa Portugal program and what is your goal?
Americans in general don’t appreciate how rich they are compared to nearly every other country, and specifically those investing in a visa in another country are another tier up
Spoken as a rich American
But there are levels that are much lower than that. 280K for rehabilitation or cultural investment for example.
Then say rich compared to the average person in Portugal then. Because it still varies, even within the US.
Also, I didn’t say “I” wasn’t rich or well off. My family and I definitely are privileged to be able to invest at the level we did. But I also know of people who have had a modest style of living, are a few years away from retirement and have invested using their savings to make their investment at one of the lower levels.”
No I specifically meant compared to the vast majority of the rest of the world, though certainly Portugal counts
Of course it varies within the USA but the median is far and away incredibly rich and we’re explicitly talking about the people able to (suboptimally) invest in other countries in order to obtain a visa
US Resident (Australian citizen).
Want a 3rd Passport (e.g. AU + US + PT [aka EU]) for myself/wife + future children
I’d say my primary Plan B aspect of US is a true Debt Crisis, maybe in 20 or 40 years the US loses Reserve Currency Status, it defaults on it’s debt, and no-one lends them money anymore, that would be a kind of event that would be very sudden, and it would require an immediate tax increase of 40% (probably levied primary at the wealthy, like the people in this forum) or budget cut of say 40% which would provoke riots/civil unrest, and a sharp contraction (e.g. like the 1930’s depression).
Mind you, if the US Defaults, I can see the rest of my big-spending passports having issues, anyone remember the 2008 Debt Crisis and PIIGS (P = Portugal) but hopefully one of my passports is a well run economic country, I may need a 4th Passport!
Unfortunately if you’re a US citizen, they tax you everywhere so cannot escape that unless you relinquish the passport!
Which is why if the taxes or conditions are bad enough, many US citizens do renounce their passport.
To do this effectively you’d want to ensure you have good passports and you don’t plan to go back to the US, hence this community.
The US has some reasonable tax exemptions currently, e.g. I believe you and your spouse can exclude about US$250,000 of income for US taxes, and I’m subject to various Dual-Tax treaties so as long as I go to a higher taxing jurisdiction (certainly the case right now as US is a relatively low tax country with a 40% income tax, PT/AU is 50%) my US taxes would be $0.
But yes, if our family suddenly had our taxes doubled and could be $50,000+/year better off by moving overseas, I think we have a serious discussion about giving up the US passports.
But there’s an Exit Tax on all covered US Persons?
If you give up US citizenship they make you pay all possible taxes on the way out. Retirement accounts are taxed as if you withdrew the entire amount, etc.
Unless you are very wealthy you might be better off reducing your income to a point where the US takes nothing due to tax treaties. Although I suppose if you are reducing your incom to $250k or whatever, you are doing alright!
Whilst Exit Tax is a valid concern, it’s generally overblown, whilst US people here will be caught by the $2m net-worth threshold, many will still pay $0 exit tax, because there’s a $700-800k gain exclusion.
e.g. if my wife and I bought a $500k Home and bought $500k of stocks, and they both double, we pay a $0 exit tax.
Now if you’re sitting on non-housing gains above $1m (Maybe you worked at a start-up that 200k of shares went to $2m) you probably need to work out a plan to deal with the $1.8 of unrealized gains you have.
I’m not saying the US will go from 40% to 80% tax overnight either, you might be prepared if they propose a 80% tax to realize some gains during the current system, when Capital Gains was proposed to double in US last year I remember they were worried of a lot of billionaires selling assets and bringing down the markets.
I’ve read articles about gifting assets to the spouse that isn’t relinquishing US citizenship, assets moved to a trust, etc.
Sterotyping the people on NomadGate, I suspect based on the investment choices of 280k/350k often, they are well-off, but not ultra-rich, e.g. I suspect 80%+ are worth US$1-5m and most currently have $1m in gains or less.
Exit tax is a concern for most here, but a manageable one.
For reference, Inside Biden’s Capital Gains Tax Plan (Example of the proposal to double the capital gains), these kinds of things are things I worry about, and these are “good times”.
Whilst this wouldn’t have applied to me (I guess I’m in the 1% and not the 0.1%), in “bad times” I’m sure they’ll go after the Top 1/2/5% that are probably in this this forum.
This could all be a moot point. Forcing people to liquidate and/or pay taxes on unrealized gains might take things too far. I suspect that the US Govt would argue that renouncing citizenship is a special case because the taxpayer would be outside their jurisdiction, but that becomes a separate issue to litigate.
[Unrealized Gains Supreme Court Case Could Change Wealth Taxes | Kiplinger]
(Unrealized Gains Supreme Court Case Could Change Wealth Taxes | Kiplinger)
You mean like IRS form 8621 ?
US, mainly because of political reasons and want a Plan B if things continue to spiral downward (e.g., more coup d’etat attempts, etc.).
US Citizenship, and for us it is Plan A. The key objectives were to start a new life adventure and have ability to travel in Europe at will without a need to squeeze into a tube for 15+ hour flight and then run for the airport after 90 days. We also wanted to escape many bizarre developments of the U.S. in political and social climates, medical costs, climbing crime rates, and in our case - run-away taxation, litigiousness, car dependency, and cost of living in California. Lisbon is very similar in climate to San Diego, though the latter is still a bit better, and so it fits well with our life style expectations.
We could have probably gotten away with D7 approach, but originally we weren’t sure if we wanted to make Portugal our European base long-term or look to other parts like Spain or France. After several months here (even without the final approval), we are quite confident we will make Lisbon our new home.
And yes, I agree with Garrett: in comparison, Americans are rich. To fully appreciate just how much you are, move to Portugal and see how everything becomes a fraction of a cost! The only exception is the price of real estate in Lisbon and Cascais which is on par with San Diego market.
Yep, most of those things too, especially health care system/costs, and gun violence.
Car dependency is a big one. I’m not planning to be full time in PT with my wife, but at least for the winter it’ll be nice being able to walk places.
Sure there’s movement toward more walkable areas and better public transit in the USA but it’s going to take decades to be noticeable the way we are slow at development. Screw that, moving to where there is public transit and a nice walkable city now is much easier
Me too! UK. I’m a brexit refugee. Not gonna accept loss of EU citizenship. Also want to give my kids the lifelong opportunities that come with freedom of movement throughout the EU.
Hi @CharlesLewis, I am also a Chinese citizen living in the US. Can I add you on WeChat for some questions? My ID is jxu-ai.