Will you apply Portugal Golden Visa knowing what you know today?

Absolutely, but with the intent of attracting investors to move there. It is when the programme was abused (with many properties sitting vacant, which only further reduces availability and drives the market prices) that public attitude began to shift. Hence the PT government had to back-track from the initial design and now completely eliminated the real-estate option under public pressure.

Fair enough - lay heavy on your Portuguese courses! :slight_smile:

This is getting off topic but the golden visa program was not ā€˜abusedā€™. Visa applicants who purchased property have acted within the rules as they were legislated. There are no requirements on how those properties are used.
It worth noting that there are over 700,000 vacant properties in Portugal (not including vacation homes). Very few are owned by GV holders, most are owned by Portuguese. And yes the government is taking steps to try force people to rent those out but many of the people fighting that move are Portuguese property owners, not foreigners. The housing problem is complex and years in the making (regulated economy, low wages, low productivity, drain of productive young workers, tourism boom, rapid growth of short term rentals in large cities, too many regulatory hurdles and too few tax incentives to renovate and rent out derelict property and so on). Unfortunately GV holders became an easy scapegoat.

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With the intent of attracting investors to move their money to Portugal. Critical difference there.

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Thereā€™s absolutely no reason to defend SEF, AIMA, or the shady people involved in the surrounding GV ecosystemā€¦ unless youā€™re in one of these groups.

So, are you a GV lawyer, blogger, or AIMA employee? :face_with_monocle:

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I will still apply Portugal GV but I might consider first getting the lifetime PR of Malta before applying Portugal GV due to the significant increment of waiting times (10-15 years to get passports for entire family).
There is something to keep in mind that: Portugal is a low cost option. It is definitely not quick option.
If someone wants to have the efficiency and less bureaucracy, it would be better to live in english speaking countries.

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If this IS what you truly believe, it only strengthen my point that this might not be a programme for you. You would probably be disappointed with this country and your donation.

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Fair enough - perhaps ā€œabusedā€ was not the right word as those who invested operated within the prescribed rules. However, I would caution of developing a view of the GV programme from the perspective of ā€œMais HabitaĆ§Ć£oā€. Investment, including real estate, in exchange for right to live in the country permanently was not something that was meant to simply attract the money. The intent was to allow investors to live in the country permanently. This might or might not fit into your objectives and those of many others, hence my initial comment of ā€œā€¦ the programme is not right for youā€.

I think you are being too harsh. It is like any industry. There are people of good intent who are truly trying to help and do the best thing for their clients, and there are people who are just in it for a fast buck. There are people with little clue, and people with a ton of clue. Itā€™s just that the proportions vary from industry to industry and situation to situation.

My lawyerā€™s been an absolute champ - not because theyā€™re nice people, but because they got results. I know of others. There are still others who I think are quite competent but charge 3x for no clear reason, and clearly there are others who charge 3x and donā€™t bother returning phone calls. I think my fund managers are doing the right thing for the most part. Others are clearly offering self-serving crap products.

I understand that you have plenty of reason to feelā€¦ bitter? Pissed? Iā€™m not too sure on point. And certainly the industry as a whole has not covered itself in glory - it clearly has too many self-serving actors in it. But there are still good and honest actors in it. I suspect that is all his point was.

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What do you base this on? I speak in curiousity not in judgment. Actual evidence one way or the other seems thin on the ground.

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I would opt for the opposite of what you are saying here. As we can see the majority of GV applicants are from asian countries (china indiaā€¦). Most of asian applicants that Iā€™ve known so far, their main goal of investing into PT GV is to get the European Passport without living in the country. Most of them have no intention to live in the country. What they did was to buy a property 350/500k and leave it there for 10 years in hoping that they will get the passport. Once they get it, they will sell the properties and the capital gain of the properties after 10 years will cover all cost involved (legal fees, card fees, renewal fees,ā€¦). There are always exceptions. But most of them prefer stay back home in their countries.

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The intent was to allow investors to live in the country permanently.

Sorry but I think youā€™re confusing intent with benefits. You only need to look at the visa rules as legislated to see the intent. There is no requirement for investors to live in Portugal permanently, not even when applying for citizenship. There is only a requirement that applicants invest a significant amount of capital in the country. It is ā€œthe right programā€ for anyone who meets those criteria. Plenty of other countries have more stringent residency requirements. Portugal chose to offer a more flexible program because it wanted to make itself a more competitive option for investors. At the time it was introduced, their economy was drowning in debt and needed a large injection of capital. The country has other schemes that were specifically designed to encourage foreigners to live in the country such as the D7 visa, the Digital Nomad Visa, the NHR tax scheme.

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I think @ohbee was being sarcastic and actually agrees with you, as do I. I have Chinese friends and I know some of the attractive benefits for them is that the visa provides a path to foreign citizenship (and European universities) for their children, a safe place to park money outside Chinaā€™s volatile markets, and they avoid having to apply for a visa to the Schengen zone, which can be a difficult process coming from China, perhaps from India too.

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If you seriously think most gv investors want to live in Portugal most of the year you are on drugs

The whole point is the low stay requirement

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I disagree with this. You are confusing the idea of want to live most of the year and ability to live most of the year.

I, for example, want to live in Portugal most of the year, but I lack the ability to live in Portugal most of the year due to work and family commitments. Thus, the idea of the ARI is an appealing option for many. My entire goal is to be in Portugal as much as possible and contribute positively to Portugal.

Sure, I acknowledge that there are some people who donā€™t want to live in Portugal, but I have not met any of these people.

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Iā€™m in your exact situation and I agree, but I donā€™t think weā€™re typical

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Correct. Speak to any lawyer handling applications and they will tell you the majority of golden visa holders are Chinese who have no plans to live in Portugal (in contrast to the smaller numbers of Americans who say they plan to). Chinese choose Portugalā€™s visa program for that flexibility and easy access to Europe (Iā€™m not Chinese but I was also attracted by the low residency requirements, even though Iā€™ve ended up staying in Portugal much more than required). In fact, one of the gripes of opponents to the golden visa has always been that many people arenā€™t even living in the country.

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Because they are only in Portugal seven days each year :wink:

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Two things. First, there are many more investment vehicles (throughout the world) that would allow you to reap return without offering a path to permanent residency/citizenship. Although many deals were structured as ā€œstrictly real-estate investmentā€ schemes (like hotels, alojamentos locais, etc.), Portugal also encouraged direct real-estate acquisition, choosing to attract those who actually wanted more than just an investment. Second, I was actually told by the locals that I am ā€œā€¦ a right type of immigrant: one who actually comes to live in Portugalā€. Many Portuguese object to people simply snatching up the real estate (the primary investment vehicle) and not using it for the intended purpose (i.e. living in it or letting it). Nobody ever treated us with any animosity, disrespect, or blame. Rather they just confided that their dreams were slipping away from them and blamed their government for, in their words, ā€œpoorly-designed programmeā€.

Lastly, I am certain that Portuguese government never truly intended in any way its GV programme to become a ā€œback doorā€ to Europe, though it is how many chose to market it.

Certainly that made Portugalā€™s programme most fair and advantageous as it did not force the investor to ā€œdrop everythingā€ and run to re-locate there. However, the ultimate understanding was the eventually you would if you really want to obtain Portuguese citizenship. They probably not counted on so many simply exploiting it as a pass to permanent EU residency/citizenship.