Will you apply Portugal Golden Visa knowing what you know today?

I have to keep pushing back on this idea that the “intent” of the program was permanent immigration, that the program has been “exploited” by those who don’t live in Portugal, and re-posting comments that only people who move to Portugal permanently are the “right type of immigrant”.

Everyone who applied for the golden visa in good faith, followed the rules, and invested their hard earned money in Portugal is the ‘right type’. The majority of ARI holders chose to not reside in Portugal permanently for whatever reason, and that is both legal and aligned with the intent of the legislation. People who want to move there permanently have much cheaper options like the D7.

The government established this program to raise capital in the midst of a post-GFC debt crisis. It was specifically designed with minimal residency requirements to make it an attractive investment proposition. It has never required people to live in the country permanently. Even to obtain citizenship after your ARI ends, you are only required to have spent 35 days in the country. Portugal could have easily required ARI holders to live in the country permanently, given them a 5 year grace period to move there so they did not have to ‘drop everything’, required people to live in the country for a period before applying for citizenship - but successive governments did none of those things. And even now that the political winds have changed, the government has not changed the low residency requirements, in fact they are potentially making citizenship even easier by backdating the residency requirements to ARI application date. They understand that is the selling point.

I invested in Portuguese businesses and only spend a couple of months each year in the country. I’ve learned to speak reasonable Portuguese. It has been a great experience, but I would not have looked at Portugal had I been required to live there permanently. There are much more attractive investment yields out there, and the Portuguese government knows that. They set the conditions that they knew would entice investors like me to invest capital.

It is not ‘exploiting’ the system to live elsewhere in the Schengen after obtaining a Portuguese passport, nor is it wrong to legally use this program to that end. Portugal is part of the Schengen agreement. Freedom of movement in the Schengen zone is a right granted to all Portuguese citizens, including those who obtained it via ARI. I would be very surprised if EU access was not top of mind for the vast majority of people on this forum.

You keep claiming the Portuguese government didn’t count on investors not actually moving to Portugal. If that were the case, they could have easily increased the residency requirements when they reformed the program last year, or at any point over the past decade. Instead they shut down the housing option and increased the amount of capital required for the investment options 
 because they want more wealthy foreign investors, not just people buying houses. Who knows what the future of the programs is, but that gives you ample information about the “intent” of the program to date.

And I will repeat this every time the association is made on these forums. The vast majority of empty properties in Portugal are not owned by golden visa holders. Much as happens elsewhere in the world, Portugal’s politicians are whipping up local enmity against foreigners for their own short term power plays. Scapegoating is much easier than tackling the economic reforms needed to fix their cost of living issues and low wages. The golden visa program did not create Portugal’s housing crisis, and shutting the program down will not solve it.

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Very well said

I am not disputing anything you have said, short of your interpretation of the “intent”. Do note that at the time the programme was initiated, funds did not even exist. That should tell you something of what the original “intent” was (OK, you could still “park” 1M € for five years, but that was not as widely used). And yes, everyone who applied for GV have followed the prescribed requirements at the time of their applications. Nothing here is about scapegoating, and I would recommend detaching “Mais Habitação” from the original GV. I am certainly not defending “Mais Habitação” component.
Yes, other options existed and continue to exist, but they also have totally different requirements that might not worked for everyone either, even if they are cheaper. For example, for D7 you must prove you have accommodations in PT, agree to live there for over 16 months over the first 2 years, provide a proof of income and evidence of health insurance, and then you must apply in your own country. Not exactly a very simple path either, especially if there is no Portuguese embassy anywhere in sight.
GV, obviously, had far different and laxed requirements, and it was aimed at a completely different class of immigrants - mostly high net worth investors (by Portuguese standards). Yes, the stay requirements are minimal, but, as you could imagine, getting a citizenship after just 35 days in Portugal would be a rather tall order, albeit theoretically possible. And hence, the concept of “intent” was still to encourage investors to spend some time (and at some point in time) in Portugal if they ultimately wanted to become PT and EU citizens.
The programme has evolved since its inception, and now it is indeed more of an “investment” intent whereas you “park” your money in Portugal’s funds, or start a company, and receive a path to citizenship with the minimum stay requirements. Real-estate component is gone from GV, and indeed Portugal will continue to have housing crisis


No, it is not “theoretically possible”. That option has been part of the GV program since the beginning and people have already obtained citizenship on the back of 35 days in the country. And it has not ‘evolved’ into an investment program. It has always explicitly been an investment program. I have to say I find it rather baffling that you could claim otherwise. Housing is also an investment. Anyway it seems we are talking past each other 


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Yeah I don’t think this discussion is particularly useful :person_shrugging:

It’s part of addiction

Considering numerous complaints on this forum about overly-optimistic sales perspectives provided by programme promoters, lawyers, agents, etc., I would rather caution those who are still contemplating the GV option to proceed with caution. There are numerous obstacles along the way which could require more time, effort, money, and often - agony (particularly from those coming from US where bureaucracy still works) that the allure of minimum stay and low investment requirements seems to suggest. After living in Portugal for over a year-and-a-half (still with no card), I encounter these quite frequently, yet I am still content with my decision as it allows me to live in Europe. Others might not be.

You are free to disregard these posts. However, please understand that in light of this topic: “Will you apply for Portugal GV knowing what you know today?”, some readers might find these relevant. Also, let’s agree to respect the concept of a free forum where everyone’s experiences and ideas could be expressed, albeit with due respect and civility.

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That’s the truth.

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I agree with you and was being sarcastic. Obviously the main reason most people want it is an EU passport.

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The short Portuguese calendar explains why it takes so long to process applications. 7 days per year! :joy:

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I think the government making real estate an investment option only proves their real estate market / economy was in terrible shape. Notice that once the real estate market was raging, they locked that down.

So now that real estate isn’t an option (at all?), is the intent no longer the same regarding wanting investors to move there? I am not so sure they ever wanted that.

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Obrigado pelo seu e-mail.

Estarei de férias até 23 de Fevereiro.

Does anyone know on what exact dates the Portuguese work 7 days/year?
I want to live in Portugal.
Vacations are at all times!!!
It doesn’t matter who you write to
 they are always on vacation.
(Sarcasm)

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Having been here for a few months now, I will say the private sector is amazingly quick compared to in the US.

Doctor’s appointments very quickly, even for specialists (within a week or two), MRI next day, same day smart lock replacement, delivery from Worten/etc within a day or two

Got water (EPAL, city-owned) and power (EDP, private) turned on within two days each after our seller screwed us a little, and the loja de cidadĂŁo is a nice setup. Turbo DMV

Not that I am saying the government isn’t slow in some parts of course, we all know it is. But just to try and note the good with the bad :slight_smile:

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great to hear that.
The frustration of not being able to access what they sold us makes us become sarcastic.
But deep down our greatest wish is to be there soon enjoying medical appointments.

Honestly I still would. I think someone mentioned that US bureaucracy works somewhat. They have obviously never experienced the capriciousness and Byzantine mess that is the U.S. immigration system.
The Portuguese one is a bit slow but in places the U.S. has slowed to the point where certain nationalities and categories will never get their green cards in their lifetime . 5-20 year waits are normal. At least we are nowhere near that at the moment.

My legal team were honest and realistic with the expected timeline when I started evaluating this (May 2022) , so I did this anyway. I am just hoping it doesn’t get any worse !

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Yes, I mentioned it, and yes, I do know exactly how much of a pain INS could be. This is my second “immigration” (to Portugal). The first one was to the U.S. 45 years ago. At that time INS was still working: I got my Green Card after one year, and citizenship after five more. Wouldn’t surprise me to learn that INS is much bigger pain now.
However, just for comparison, today I stopped by Escola de Condução to enquire about what it would take for me to exchange the driving license or obtain a new one. To exchange, I would have to surrender my CA license and wait about
 10 months for the Portuguese one. You could imagine how well that would work when you want to travel and rent a car when all you have is a piece of paper in Portuguese that your license is being processed, though you can drive with that paper in Portugal. And to get a driving license in Portugal anew would cost you about 800 € in Lisbon and would also take about 6+ months because they would insist on you going through the full gamut of learning the rules, practicing driving simulation, and behind-the-wheel training! Hopefully there are some cheaper ones

Of course, you could only exchange or get a new license AFTER you get the residency card!
Should I mention that it takes five to seven business days to get a replacement license in CA or AZ in your home mail?
Similar timeframes (12+ months) for me to change my apartment designation on my title deed from secondary to primary with the notary and Finanças

And if you are interested of all the hoops I had to jump to register a car that bought in Spain (I couldn’t find the model I wanted in Portugal), please DM me - it is a very funny story in its own right!
Indeed medical system here works great, very accessible, and extremely reasonable. So is the medical insurance.
Despite all that, it is Plan A for me, and I am happy I made the move to Lisbon. Your results may vary!

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Oh I don’t doubt Portuguese bureaucracy is worse than the American one in general.
I have a fair deal of worldwide experience with bureaucracy. US DMV (at least in the four or five states I’ve experienced ) is one of the better ones by a long way.

I will DM re the car.

Absolutely agree it’s worth mentioning that not everything is bad or inconvenient
just everything I’ve experienced thus far! Hopefully one day the balance changes and, like Gandalf, I have no memory of this place


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Wouldn’t do it again. It just takes too much time, and the uncertainty around when, if, ever (?) is too much to bear for years after already parting with the money.

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Thanks, Jeff. You summarised it far better than I would have.