So I took it as insurance against Brexit - I have been lucky so far as my appointments have been within 2 months. Appltn as well as renewal however my brother applied in 2022 and not yet called and many people I know too suffer the same- Moral of the story a good visa to have if you are willing to wait and ignore inefficiencies and also look at having locked a substantial part of your earnings - I do not believe in the VC space in Portugal - cannot sustain its too small an economy to hold start ups and it does not have the requisite talent . So chance of losing your money is high . Since real estate is not allowed i find Pt a risky country to inv in stocks or vc funds. Some real estate in commercial assets is allowed which is more secure than vc funding and real estate generally brings back your money - ofc no guarantee with any inv but I prefer RE- if you need more info you can DM me and I will detail my full experience. Best of Luck Deepak
I’ve been observing 12 rounds of heavy weight debate from all of you. Thanks for keeping up the energy 
.
Based on my experience, I can see some following patterns:
- Countries with higher level of dictatorship (China, Vietnam, Turkey, Cambodia,…) are generally safer in term of crime/murder rate. It is often less violent on the streets. Daily life is way less hectic. The political leaders of these countries only implement arrest or violent action when there is an opposition which causes a serious threat to take over their position.
- Countries with higher degree of political freedom (US UK EU LatAm…) usually have higher crime rate. You surely have more freedom on the political side to express whatever you want without worrying being arrested. However, taking out that political interest, your daily life surely has to tolerate a significantly higher degree of chaos (more violences on the street, discrimination/racism can happen in a violent way, crime and murder are at higher rate).
It really depends on the preference of each person. Different people have different bachgrounds and experiences which lead to different ability to adapt/accept/integrate to a certain country.
For example:
- If you are a Muslim person (from Iran or Malaysia or Indonesia), surely Turkey stands out quite a good choice because Turkey is a islamic country. (Although i personally think it is a “capitalist” islamic country - not a traditional islamic one).
- If you are from South East Asian or China, 100% LatAm is not for you. Being a Chinese in LatAm is understood that you are with lots of cashs and you will be worrying everyday that someone will kidnap you or rob you and rape you till death.
- If you are american or canadian, UK or EU is easier to integrate due to the linguistical and cultural similarities.
Therefore each person has his own set of countries which provides him backup/flexibity/financial freedom.
Personally, I would try to create a set of countries that have their own charateristics and do not overlap each other. Here is my target:
- Turkey for its independence in term of political. Turkey is not influenced by any countries in the world. It stands on its own ground politically.
- Portugal for its interesting culture and its powerful passport which Turkey does not offer. On political side, Portugal is just a puppet and a follower of EU. Portugal does not have a voice in EU. Just follow and obey. Indeed Portugal is a loyal dog of EU.
- One country in South East Asia region: it offers financial freedom. Most countries in SEA have low tax and do not have CRS (common reporting standard) which makes life lot easier financially.
What ya’ll think about it?
I think you received plenty of advice and analysis of the current state of the PTGV. Much of it is true: it is painfully slow, unpredictable, carries significant economic risks, etc. There are also very valid points why other alternatives to the present-day U.S. could and perhaps should be considered. However, I would like to give you yet another perspective of a former U.S. (CA) resident that now has made PT his primary domicile for over two-and-a-half years:
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You should be in a good financial state to engage in this programme. You may be risking some 500K € in funds, which is not insignificant. If it is your Plan B, view it as a long-term investment in a citizenship, at least in terms of the financial aspect. (I was fortunate to apply in 2021 when real-estate option was still available, and for me, being Plan A, that worked quite good so far).
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You will be coming at a level of financial stability that is (almost) unattainable by most Portuguese. You will not be competing for their jobs, and you shouldn’t plan to compete for their services (i.e. pay for your own medical insurance, etc.). You are also not competing with other immigrants whose numbers have overwhelmed the country in the recent years and it would take years for them to fully assimilate. Hence you will be immune to many daily struggles of a typical Portuguese, an African labourer, or an Asian shopkeeper.
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Daily life in Portugal is actually quite easy provided you do not concentrate excessively on bureaucratic inefficiencies. Yes, the bureaucracy is omnipresent and can be extremely daunting, but it is not the primary component of your life here. Most Portuguese I meet here are deeply unhappy with their own bureaucracy, but they just shrug their shoulders and go on living. Don’t expect the U.S. efficiency (even if it is rather becoming a passé in the U.S.) - dealing with most agencies will take more time and effort, yet it shouldn’t be your primary life objective and, perhaps, a deterrent. AIMA is, of course, in a special category, and there is plenty said on this forum about the challenges we all face.
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Integration into Portuguese society is also fairly easy. Firstly, the country is very cosmopolitan and is amazingly versed in English. Overwhelming majority of situations can be quickly and easily settled in English. Secondly, Portuguese, in general, just gripe about their problems and continue living, not noticing your presence altogether. Thirdly, if you have common interests with locals, you will make new friends amongst them. I met plenty of interesting people in my French conversation group organised by the local Institute Français. Others meet in yoga classes, running groups, dance studios, etc. And then again, there plenty of ex-pats who are just as eager to meet you, though they may not necessarily be form the U.S. My neighbours are also very friendly and generally very well-wishing. All-in-all, my wife had only one incident of being reprimanded for the lack of Portuguese knowledge by a government official, which we just shrugged off.
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Language is more challenging than many other European languages, but it is not impossible. It requires more effort than perhaps Italian or French, yet it is not Greek or Latvian. I wouldn’t consider it to be a stumbling block.
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Living here without proper immigration documents, but with the U.S. passport, is also not much of an issue. There is no ICE coming to knock on your door or to stock you at a school or a market. Drive with your U.S. licence, just be more careful and respectful of their laws - a good practice anyway. Travelling across the borders by car has not been an issue at all, nor has been the air travel within the EU. Overstaying the 90-day U.S. automatic tourist visa - a routine practice. Re-entering the country with less than 90-day absence from the EU - also a standard practice. Nobody really cares, or at least they have not cared so far.
Now, if you are considering this seriously and as Plan B, then here are also some extra advantages (at least for now since nothing about this programme is guaranteed):
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You can apply whilst you are still working and living in the U.S. You can even use your IRA funds to finance your investment. If you are more than 10 years away from your retirement, so much the better.
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You only need to be in the country 7 days per year, and you can combine your trips into 14-day adventures in years 2+ (at least per old law). You only need to start making these annual or biennial “pilgrimages” after your first card is received.
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You only need A2 language knowledge, which is very basic, and there are plenty of ways to get the required certificate without taking the dreaded test.
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As per the current rules, you can start your citizenship application after five years. The time might be counted from the date of your application - the best case scenario, or from the date of your first card. There is still an active debate about the starting date. To apply, you still will need to get your first card and maintain your investment.
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If you don’t declare residency here, you do not need to file Portuguese taxes (as opposed to the U.S. where you do need to file them no matter where you live).
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You can reside in Portugal whilst your application is being considered. You can open a bank account, buy or rent a property, purchase and register a vehicle, and if you are under 60 - legally drive with your U.S. license. You will need to start filing your Portuguese taxes if you are spending more than 183 days per year in Portugal, but there is a double taxation treaty with the U.S. that will give you credit on your U.S. taxes that are paid in Portugal.
If you really do consider Portugal as your eventual destination, it is a rather pleasant country. You can choose to be royally annoyed by its inefficiencies and idiosyncrasies, should-be-trivial procedures that defy any logic or reason, graffiti on the walls, trash on the streets (in many areas of Lisbon), chaotic traffic, poor urban roads, lack of upkeep, etc. Alternatively, you can enjoy much cheaper lifestyle (compare to CA, U.S.), good and efficient medical care, very affordable health insurance, free museums with your NIF, plenty of accessible entertainment, great food and wine, pleasant weather most of the year, beautiful historical landmarks and countryside, and proximity to the rest of Europe. These choices are entirely up to you, and so is your decision.
I will second this - Portugal is wonderful if you ignore the bureaucracy and aren’t too upset by the lack of us style customer service
Well said PCERoman
I’ve stayed a spectator on this thread, as most of my dissatisfaction was already noted by others within 9 hours of the original question. I thought I was negative on the PT GV’s broken promises… clearly not just me! 
A clarification on 90/180 though…
That may change soon, as your “Schengen days” will probably be in large type on the Border Guard’s screen (see below). No more flipping through passport pages, trying to decipher unreadable stamps and summing dates manually.
If they go really next-level on this, the Guard may have to justify why they let you in if your number was near or over 90. Could curtail a lot of the Guard discretion/ambivalence that we currently benefit from.
@PTbound I understand your point but… I believe that non-EU citizens who hold residency cards for a member state are supposedly exempt from the EES system.
Here is the proof, right here.
And if you don’t want to click on the link, the text is this:
“The EES does not apply to:
SNIP
Holders of residence permits and long-stay visas”
I believe this refers to us, the beleaguered PT GV holder. Of course nobody yet knows how all this will work in practice. But if we do not have to use the EES system when we enter PT then it seems to imply we will not have to use the EES system when we enter the other EU countries and they will all recognise our right to enter without the EES counter ticking over.
Pure speculation but possibly it means that non-EU citizens with residency in a particular country will be exempt from the 90/180 rule which is monitored and enforced by the EES system even if we cannot work or settle in one of those third EU countries because our residency is in Portugal. Who knows. I’m just speculating on this. The proof of the pudding, as ever, will be in the eating.
Yes, it is true that valid resident card holders do not need to use EES. The problem is trying to convince someone of this amongst all the chaos at the airport. Have you ever tried to reason with the line agent before?
Well, that’s one way of viewing the world but it doesn’t change the legal administration of the EES.
And yes, I have discussed things with the PT immigration agents who are incredibly inconsistent with stamping my passport when I enter with my GV residency card. Some stamp it routinely (which I believe is correct) and others will hand back the passport unstamped and insist that they are correct and look at me like I’m a fool when I request politely that they do indeed stamp it.
Perhaps things get more consistent with the arrival of the EES. Or perhaps not. What’s certain is that some aspect of our immigration experience will change. The proof of the pudding. But I prefer to focus on the regulations rather than the potential of craziness.
Hi @richn4 - when you said “Overstaying the 90-day U.S. automatic tourist visa” I thought you were referring to applicants with no residency cards yet. Hence my comment on them being tracked in/out with precision by the EES.
If you’ve got your Golden Visa that’s a residence visa, and there is no “overstaying.” Which immigration queue they shove you into, not sure 
Let’s be optimistic and hope there will be two queues at every EU entry point: one for EES Aliens and one for EU Citizens & Residents. That would be ideal. We can but dream. Exciting times.
I believe you may have over-generalized your observations.
There is no strong correlation between the type of governance vs. the level of ‘street crime’ in a given country.
I have just casually browsed some crime index charts and it appears 5 out of 10 safest countries are ‘democracies’ while 5 others are ‘dictatorships’.
Funnily enough, the same picture repeats itself at the bottom of the chart with 5/5 split among the most unsafe countries in the world.
This supports some of my comments above where I suggested not to plan emigration decisions on the basis of how a prospective country is labelled/governed politically, or at least not to exclude a country purely on the basis of it being ‘authoritarian’. And conversely, assuming any ‘democracy’ is ridden with crime and thus should be avoided, is perhaps not an optimal approach 
Just to illustrate the point, UAE, Qatar, and Oman are among the top 5 safest countries. Not many people would call them ‘democracies’ 
On the flip side, I can’t recall reading ‘dictatorship’ and Andorra, Armenia, or Japan in the same sentence (but all 3 in the top 10 safest…)
After all, even our most favorite ‘democracy’ - Portugal, is pretty safe and even rated 8 ranks above Cuba! 
You are correct, and all I could attest were to my experiences so far. However, the introduction of ETIAS and electronic border controls have been postponed already several times. There is still a very high probability that they will be delayed again, partly because of the issues with visas that plagued Portugal and other EU members. Until this system is unveiled, I will continue to try my luck.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
My experience is limited and surely cannot be generalised for all cases.
However, I would not put my trust on the indexed charts. We all know that the indexed charts were done/made by western countries and serve their own purposes.
I think you are mistaken what I was saying.
Let’s see my analogy again:
A1 = dictatorship A2=democracy
B1= lower crime rate. B2=higher crime rate
If a country is under A1, then it is likely to have B1
If a country is under A2, then it is likely to have B2
My statement is one way direction statement. It only works from A1/2 to B1/2.
What you wrote was “From B1/2 to A1/2 i” which is completely opposite to what I wanted to say.
If a country is under A2, then is it likely to have B1? Maybe, it depends.
If a country is under A1, then is it likely to have B2? Maybe, it depends.
Again, my observation is only my personal experience. It is completely normal if people have different experience from mine.
I have no horse in this race, but…
We all know that the indexed charts were done/made by western countries and serve their own purposes.
Do we all know that? Tommigun didn’t even say which charts. Is the accusation here that all crime rate charts are made by western democracies with the goal of unfairly smearing the dictatorships of the world? …and even if that were true, the lists Tommigun referenced apparently came to a pretty neutral result re: public safety in democracies vs dictatorships. If the data is a western conspiracy…speaking as a westerner, I’d like to say I’m disappointed in this service.
As for the formal logic and probabilities: true enough, in the abstract, 𝑃(𝐵|𝐴) might not correlate with 𝑃(𝐴|𝐵). But if there’s no acceptable objective way to assign values to A and B (because the relevant data is a western conspiracy), I think the question (does government type correlate to safety) is unanswerable, except by personal experience – in which case, like, we might as well skip the logic and just say “In my experience these countries are safer.”
Which is exactly where I was coming from in the beginning of this thread somewhere 
when I suggested not dismissing any country as a potential target for expatriation simply on the basis of how it is governed, e.g. ‘authoritarian’ or ‘democracy’.
And to give a flavor of personal experience, comparing two well-known and long-established ‘democracies’:
- a country where I happen to be a citizen of: alcohol bottles in the shops are all covered and locked in some thick metal nets, plus sometimes locked in further in a time-delay locked cupboards; kitchen knives are all locked in, you cannot get them delivered unless you show your ID for age verification, and now you cannot buy a coffee at self-checkout unless you prove your age as 16+ as it has apparently become dangerous..
- a country I visited on vacation last week: alcohol bottles are not covered in anything, one can purchase them via self-checkout so no age restriction apparently, knives are sold in the open shops on the open shelves (as well as some swords etc.), and I was not able to observe any restrictions on coffee
Anecdotally, locals told me that kids normally walk to and from their nursery schools by themselves from the age of 4.
Both democracies though.. go figure
I’ll give you my perspective on this issue as a UK citizen who has lived and worked abroad for the last 14 years including five years in Malaysia, four years in mainland China, and nearly three years in Thailand.
Some countries there whose politics and/or control over the population stink if you want to spend time dwelling on it.
I found that I didn’t care much about corruption at the highest levels of government or state control of the daily details of life that my friends and colleagues who were citizens of those countries did care deeply about. This is because as a foreigner, I wasn’t too much affected by these issues and I could always leave if it had became intolerable for me which it didn’t. I concluded that the worst a shady government could do to me as a foreigner would be to take action that made me care about it. None of these did in this respect.
I also spent nine months during 2021 in Hong Kong under Carrie “The Laminator” Lam’s pathetic regime which was significantly more intrusive to everyone than anything going on over the border in mainland China at the time. After being rounded up and thrown into a camp with fellow gym members along with their parents, children, and housemates for the most spurious of reasons I insisted we left HK and I was so repulsed by the action I would not want to return.
So, regarding authoritarian vs democratic countries, I’d say it’s very easy to over analyse this from afar without taking actual experience living in a place as a foreigner on the ground into account. This is far more important as foreigners are often somewhat immune to perceived negative aspects compared to the citizens who are to an extent trapped there.
We’re veering off topic a bit but -
Some of this smacks conspiratorial to me. Notably, saying democracies all are more likely to be unsafe
Personally, I am interested in a second citizenship as a backup plan, as a long running plan to give myself the most options and legal protections reasonably possible, and to help avoid stuff that can seriously ruin your life
So, I don’t travel through e.g. China, Russia, the gulf states, etc, because I perceive the risk of being essentially kidnapped and held for ransom as an American to be too high. Maybe not likely, but not 0.
Most other problems I can get out of with the appropriate application of money, contacts, etc, but stuff like Russia arresting you on trumped up charges, there’s nothing you can do.
I feel a bit vindicated among family since starting this in 2021, given the recent political developments with the US - I’m like the whitest guy possible, and even I’m nervous to be flying back to the states soon. I can’t imagine how bad it is for anyone with darker skin
As someone who doesn’t have the whitest skin possible - I have no problem whatsoever. I am not emotionally charged and I don’t believe everything I read online though.
I travelled abroad 3 times this year - never lost my sleep.
As far as the original topic - no it’s not the scam. And there is no endless fees - these fees are defined upfront at the beginning, to submit the application, at the middle - to get a residency card, and at the end - to get a citizenship. Fees are relatively small. My investment is safe, I can liquidate it tomorrow if I want to.
Maybe it was a scam for the real estate investors during COVID. In 2025 it’s an amazing option with 20%\year returns and little downside, if you don’t need a residency card NOW.
Dear God. Any financial adviser who talks like this will get a “scam” label from me and absolutely no $$$.
All Portuguese GV funds are far off the Efficient Frontier. It’s completely fine if the opportunity cost is part of what folks pay in return for the option value of a plan B, and 500k euro represents a small portion of one’s total wealth and liquidity. But “[20]% p.a. return with little downside” is how Russian debt was marketed pre 1998.
Below is how I think about the option value for someone who’s missed the boat on NHR1.x and is not ready to move to PT yet.
- 30% probability one could obtain passport in 5+3=8 years without becoming a tax resident;
- 30% probability it takes a few years longer, but without having to become a tax resident;
- 30% probability that the Nationality Law changes, such that it takes a few years of tax residency. So for someone who’s still >10 years from retirement or with aging parents/older school-age children who don’t want to move to Portugal, this means renewing PT GV over and over until making the physical move. Then there are two scenarios for me:
- scenario 1: PT tax does not make sense for me to move, ever. Then I cut losses and run.
- scenario 2: Some form of NHR1.x comes back, so that my foreign incomes are spared. Then I’ll probably keep renewing my PT GV if it is still of value to me. But given all the renewal difficulties, it will be very annoying if I have to keep renewing for 20 years until I can actually move. I might just get annoyed into giving it up, if my other plan Bs work out better.
- 10% probability others events will happen.
Of course, the probability numbers are completely subjective and disproportionally influenced by PSD’s latest campaign promises, but we can probably all agree that the % numbers are worse for 2025 applicants than for 2020/21 applicants who can apply for citizenship before any new Nationality Law comes into effect.